Joyful1's Routine

[joyful1]

Today I measured myself. I shouldn't have mid-cycle. I was 31 1/2. How could that happen. I don't feel like I'm smaller. That's 1 1/2 inches less. Is that possible? I'll have to not measure until my next cycle.

[Wahaika]

Yep it's possible. Madredesiete lost an inch in the first few weeks and then it came right back in about the next month.

Mid cycle is the best time to measure.

[annie]

hi joy, i can't measure so i don,t i tend to be full at times but after period it goes away.
i'td wonderful you are getting growth. keep it up.

[joyful1]

Mid-cycle?? Really?? I always thought I should measure on day 5- I don't know where I got that- maybe F2F. And by the way, I measured again today just to get my spirits up and I was back to 32 1/2. Maybe it depends on the time of day. I have to quit measuring.

[Wahaika]

I agree. Don't drive yourself bats. Day 5 is as good as mid cycle. Luteal swelling is gone by both times. I don't think it really makes much difference what day measurement takes place on as long as it is the same each cycle.

[joyful1]

Today is day 5 of my 3rd cycle. I measured today, since I've been measuring on day 5. I was 32 1/2. I am very frustrated. It has been two cycles and I barely ever feel any pains any more. I felt some the first day of my period (and I had taken my internals because I didn't get my period until the late afternoon). I know you aren't supposed to keep switching your routine, but I often wonder whether I should be doing something different. I am so tired of looking at tiny boobs with a sagging nipple. That is for old people, not someone my age. At this point, a AA would be great with me. This AAA stuff really stinks.

[noonie]

joyful1

I totally understand your frustrations. I am about the same size as you, maybe AA. We'll get through this!

I am also doing basically the same program as you. But, I bought my herb supplements from stores rather than online. I ramped up to 500 mg Fenugreek 3 times per day, 450 mg Saw Palmetto 3 times per day, 1 EPO before lunch, and I am planning on adding Wild Yam in a few days. But I'm not sure that I will do Wild Yam right away because I am feeling slight constant aches in my breasts.

I massage at least 20 minutes per session, twice a day. The massage batch I've been using consists of baby oil, borage oil, Vitamin E oil, and Fenugreek. I don't know the exact quantities of each, but I can tell you the I opened at most 6 capsules of borage oil, 1 cap of Vit-E, and 1 cap of Fenugreek ( 500 mg ) and mixed it all with the baby oil, and let it set for 5 days.

I am certainly no expert at NBE; this is my first go at it. But, maybe you could use supplements of lesser concentration than the ones supplied by Greenbush. What does anyone else think?

I am feeling pains right now, so I think I'm not even going to start ramping the Wild Yam.

I don't know if this will help you or not, and I certainly don't want for you to get any more discouraged: I am very athletic and I have always been active in running and sports ( probably why I didn't develop well ). But I quit running once starting my NBE. When I could not handle feeling inactive for so many weeks, I went for a 30 minute moderate jog. About 12 minutes into the workout, I felt the strongest pains in my breasts since starting NBE! They really felt like growth pains! And here's the catch, since running this morning I am still feeling the pains. I think actually getting my heart pumping and blood circulating showed to be really conducive to my efforts at NBE. I am not saying that you should go out and jog, because I would hate for you to jog and then come back and feel as if you deflated. But I really think moderate exercise might help.

Don't try anything if you're not ready to, and please don't put your trust in numbers and measurements. It will definitely drive you crazy.

[joyful1]

Noonie,
That's a good point about the lesser concentration. Since I'm so small, I have wondered if I'm getting too much. I've thought about only taking my dosages twice a day. I don't know if that would do anything. The exercise idea is worth a shot. That's great that you are having so many pains. I've wondered too if I should take out the WY, since that 's just added phytoestrogen. There's too many variables and it overwhelms me to think about trying to figure out what works best. Sometimes I think I should just stick with my routine for a couple more months, but then I don't want to waste my time and money if it isn't doing anything. Where's Wahaika when you need him?

[Wahaika]

Hello joyful1,

I was just answering an email and noticed that your routine had been updated so I decided to check it out.

The key to your problems is what you wrote in your stats page yesterday: "A month after I started my initial routine, I had grown a half inch. Now, two months after, I am back to my original size. "

Once you grow about a half inch, that is significant, especially for your size!!! Do you know what an accomplishment that is?! Anyway, when you grow a half inch, especially in the AAA and AA sizes where a half inch is really good growth, you need to watch for those growing pains to go away. It is expected because now you have additional cells that require additional herbs to maintain it and continue the growth. So, just do what you did before, exactly as you did before, and when you grow that half inch again then watch for the pains to start to subside and then start adjusting the fenugreek up until they return.

The process is just like that. It is two steps forward and one step back all the way. It is not easy. It just takes endless persistence.

..on using weaker strength of herbs, that is not usually a good idea. You want the best quality herbs so that they will work! If you want more ability to adjust, then go to extracts because you can then go down to one drop at a time if you want to. But at least it is one drop at a time of something that you can have a lot of confidence in. Not to say that Greenbush is the only place to get good herbs, it's just the place that I recommend to be consistent. If you want to use herbs from a local store, try the Nature's Way brand.

Hang in there!

Wahaika

[joyful1]

I was kidding about "Where is Wahaika". I know you were taking a break. I appreciate your response though. I have been feeling occasional pains a few times a day. I get confused about adjustments when I feel pains more around my period than at other times. It makes me wonder if I should adjust something during the middle of my cycle. Thanks for the encouragement.

[joyful1]

Wahaika- see above if you are reading. Wahaika gave me a new burst of hope. I realized yesterday that I have been feeling smaller than normal and I haven't been doing my massage routine as I had been. I haven't been using Saran wrap after massage at night and my heat hadn't been very long. Last night I started again with the wrap and more heat and I feel bigger today. Maybe this is all just a mind game, but I looked much less saggy. That tells me that the Saran wrap and heat are important, although it makes me wonder if the growth just goes away after you quit doing the massage. Any thoughts anyone? Has anyone else experienced this?

[Wahaika]

The growth goes up and down. You should be keeping a little bit each time. Heat is very important in massage. It helps in several ways. It relaxes things and opens pores. But the main reason for it is to encourage the aromatization of testosterone to estrogen. This is one of the reasons to include borage oil both as an internal and in massage.

Wahaika

[joyful1]

I used EPO as an internal with negative effects. Will Borage oil have the same negative effect?

[joyful1]

To Wahaika 6/15/06

Wahaika,
I got this quote from p. 7 of this routine:
"Another thing. You are looking for growing pains in the first half of your cycle when estrogen gets to its highest. Growth during the second half is referred to luteal swelling and is temporary. Estrogen falls off at that time but comes back a little before dropping again. Progesterone also ramps itself up at this time. So if you get growing pains in the luteal phase, remember those dosages and then wait to see what effect you get in the follicular phase (first half of cycle). It could be that you only need to add or subtract a little to keep them going the entire time."

This is from a pm I sent you:
>>"Is estrogen higher during my period?

No, it is rock bottom low and starts it's climb on day 1 but does not really start a steep climb until after menstruation is complete.

I wanted to clarify- Is estrogen at its highest or lowest during period? I feel pains about the first week of my cycle and then nothing. Does this mean that I have too much estrogen (with taking the internals) during the luteal phase and that's why I don't have pains. I've wanted to play around with adjusting the dosages during luteal, but I know you've said it's normal not to have pains then. Do you think I should just keep my dosages the same for the full cycle?

[joyful1]

Reply from Wahaika 6/16/06

Joyfu1,

See this chart:

www.sisterzeus.com/hormonechart.htm

Estrogen is lowest when the period starts and ramps up to its highest point at mid cycle.

I have not looked at the dosages in your routine yet, but going by the fact that your growing pains go away after your first week, I would say that one of two things is going on:

1) (most likely) Your dosages for the estrogenic herbs are too high.

2) (also likely but not as likely as 1) Your dosages are OK but you do not necessarily need to feel growing pains to grow. While this is a possibility, I think option 1 is more consistent with those who have traditionally grown - they had growing pains.

Try stopping everything for one week starting at mid cycle. Count the days that pass before you feel growing pains again. That is the best way to see if you were stalled and how stalled you were. You can adjust your dosages accordingly.

Wahaika