Greenbush: Disturbing Report

[mominator]

EXACTLY my point, do not rely on 1 source. Know you body and it seems those that are dowsing "may" have difficulty listening to that inner voice. If it works.....GO FOR IT. My personal choice not to dowse. I KNOW I would cheat. ;D

Sorry if I offended you with the dowsing, I think it's great so many are benefitting from it. But it's not for me. I have a great inner voice, it screams! ;D

[Wahaika]

>>"So your comment that it was "only dowsers" having side effects of endo was only partially true. Two NBE'rs who had side effects from NBE, LATER learned to dowse and were able to accomplish NBE WITHOUT further side effects."

Hmmm. It looks like we are talking about different women. And it is hard to discuss it without giving exact examples which identify individuals.

The two women I am referring to:

Woman A) blamed Greenbush for endometriosis and then dowsed and claims to have grown. The little problem I have with crediting a pendulum is that all she probably did was lower/change dosages. (I see no routine in the routines section for this one, so I'm guessing.) Anyone could have done it with or without a pendulum, especially after experiencing endo where any differences in the routine would have been extremely conservative anyway so as to avoid endo. The brain did that one, not the pendulum.

Woman B) dowsed BO from the start. She had severe problems. I remember thinking from the start that cycling BO had the possibility of backfiring badly.

Were her problems from dowsing or from cycling BO? For me, the answer is that they are one in the same, and the endo was most likely a pre-existing condition or caused by something else like BC or HRT. But BO is powerful stuff. I watched one woman after another have nothing but problems with it on Bob' board.

Did she just need more practice? To say that all you need is pendulum practice is to say that you are engaging in trial and error using a pendulum. Pendulum practice or trial and error practice, I don't see much difference. I don't think that women need a device to be in tune with their bodies, or that a device is better than their own senses and intuition.

Goat's rue - Yep, if anyone is pregnant or trying to become pregnant they should avoid all these herbs, including Goat's Rue.

Wahaika
(yep, I know, we've gone through all of this before - here we go again)

[Wenonae]

wahaika said:

I don't think that women need a device to be in tune with their bodies, or that a device is better than their own senses and intuition.

So the question is- why is it that there aren't more testimonials from other women (who have such a HIGH propensity for 'in tune' with themselves) about their successful routines, growth, and the methods used to form them that anyone can replicate and succeeed with? Why aren't they teaching the world about NBE? Why is there even trial and error for that matter then?

Let me answer- it's because

PEOPLE DON'T KNOW REALLY KNOW HOW TO BE IN TUNE WITH THEMSELVES

Dowsing is purified intuition. It's a way to nullify the 'I think this may work' and the mis-guided hunches to get down to the real truth. It's easier for kids (who have a more open mind) vs. adults, but the answer is deep down inside all of us. If you don't take baby steps, then you'll never learn how to run. Who ever remembers as a child how many times they fell down? NO one. All that you remember is knowing how to walk. Still, it's an accepted fact that it takes time, mistakes, attempts before you get it rite.

Walking is a skill. Dowsing too is a skill.

The only way to start at the top of the ladder is if you took stairs to get to the top or you are God. All others in-between gotta learn, test it out, and take one step atta time understanding they may fall, but they have got to get up one more time in order to move forward.


Wen'

[Wahaika]

I would make the exact same argument to support the trial and error method, and developing the skill of being in tune with ones body. (which, by the way, was the practice before dowsing came along.)

You might point to wide success in the past year or so that dowsing has been used. I would point to the fact that that is only because most women on the board probably dowse and say that that skews the numbers. I would also point to three women that have made it to D and DD by using trial and error and ask - how many D and DD's has dowsing produced?

If we really want to know how successful one is over the other, then we have to take all cases using both techniques and analyze the numbers. Without exact numbers, of other boards and testimonials as well, both of us are just making claims.

The only other way to do it would be to do a test with three groups. A trial and error group, a dowsing group, and a control group. All women would have to have the same characteristics.

Again, I'm not invalidating your argument, but I would use your same argument to support trial and error.


Wahaika

[fawnmarie]

wahaika said:

Hmmm. It looks like we are talking about different women. And it is hard to discuss it without giving exact examples which identify individuals.

I watched one woman after another have nothing but problems with it on Bob' board.
(yep, I know, we've gone through all of this before - here we go again)

Yeah, I'm pretty sick of the debate myself. From a purely objective viewpoint - I don't advocate either method over the other, myself - but observation has shown me that both work for many women.

I don't know if we're talking about the same people or not. The only two I can think of are:

Charky - who was on BO, got endo and quit BO and used dowsing to reverse the damage and then proceed with an NBE program, which was successful for her.

and Barb (I think her board name is), who was on "Bob's program" which include his "secret special sauce ingredient" - estrodiol valerate - which is an injectible, prescription only estrogen with a list a precautions as long as your arm. It is so strong, it's generally only used short term and for male-to-female transgenders. She developed endo, had to get a hysterectomy, and about 2 years later started dowsing to find a safe NBE program that would work for her.

So, in fact, I haven't seen any evidence of any of the "dowsers" getting endo or any other side effects during an NBE program that they dowsed.

I wanted to make that absolutely clear and understood - NO ONE has gotten endo - or any other serious side effects - from a program that they dowsed for themselves.

Its probably reasonable to assume that some women are simply more susceptible to endo than others.

Okay - and I know this is where the crux of the debate is - yes, the brain DID do it. The brain caused the hands to unconsciously (i.e. unnoticed) move the pendulum the way it needed to go to be understood by the conscious mind. No one is channeling any kind of demons or supernatural "forces". There is a great deal of research in the field of psychiatry and psychology showing how the subconscious mind effects the body and vice-versa. Its really just a way of reading the subconscious mind, and sometimes a device is just a device (sorry for the Freudian paraphrase).

And really - it doesn't actually matter - if it works for you, it works, if it doesn't - it doesn't. From what I know of human psychology, it doesn't actually matter. Psychology isn't a "pseudo-science" as Tom Cruise would have us believe - but it IS an imprecise one and more of an art, really.

Fawn

[mominator]

I honestly do NOT see a debate here. Try dowsing if it works for you GREAT, if not...at least you tried. At the very least, it might help you get intuned with your body. I think the major factor is knowing your body, your hormonal balance, listening to warning signs, stuff like that.

off soap box!

[Wenonae]

wahaika said:

You might point to wide success in the past year or so that dowsing has been used. I would point to the fact that that is only because most women on the board probably dowse and say that that skews the numbers.

Actually, I would say most of the posters dowse, not that most of the women of this board dowse. There are almost 1000 members, I would say maybe, just maybe 100 dowse. That leaves a significant number left for trial and error folks. It'd be nice to ask the moderators to send out an e-mail asking participating in anonmous poll on what method they are using. In fact, I'll just start one now. Gotta love the polls.

I would also point to three women that have made it to D and DD by using trial and error and ask - how many D and DD's has dowsing produced?

The women who did that did so over 2-4 years. Dowsing is only just catching on, so I'd say we just need more time. Also, I think I know who you are referring to, but really 1 of the 3 of them dabbled with dowsing to pick out the rite stuff to push her the rest of the way 'over the top' .

If we really want to know how successful one is over the other, then we have to take all cases using both techniques and analyze the numbers. Without exact numbers, of other boards and testimonials as well, both of us are just making claims.

I agree. I hope we can get more members to participate. It'd be even nicer if we can get the poll pinned so people continue to update and reply to it.

The only other way to do it would be to do a test with three groups. A trial and error group, a dowsing group, and a control group. All women would have to have the same characteristics.

I think this would be an awesome way to compare, but I don't know if there's enough demographic. I don't think 30, for example, is so hot a statistical number. 6000 would be, but we've barely 1000 members, and only about 30-50 active posters. Let's start with poll asking which group people are in. Then we'll see how it pans out. I'm curious. I interact more with dowsers than T&E'ers, so it'll be good information.


Wen'

[Cassandra]

wahaika said:

You might point to wide success in the past year or so that dowsing has been used. I would point to the fact that that is only because most women on the board probably dowse and say that that skews the numbers. I would also point to three women that have made it to D and DD by using trial and error and ask - how many D and DD's has dowsing produced?





Wahaika

Wahaika, The only successes aren't those who've made it to a D or DD. There are lots others who have grown quite a bit but don't have the cup size D or DD so u can't measure success on just a big cup size! Personally, I see someone who has grown a cup size or more and have kept it for good, as having success.

[Wahaika]

uncle.

[Wahaika]

OK, just a few little things then I'll shut up.

>>So, in fact, I haven't seen any evidence of any of the "dowsers" getting endo or any other side effects during an NBE program that they dowsed.

>>I wanted to make that absolutely clear and understood - NO ONE has gotten endo - or any other serious side effects - from a program that they dowsed for themselves.

>>Its probably reasonable to assume that some women are simply more susceptible to endo than others.

Yep, barbara1234567? was one. I don't know if she kept her growth or how she is doing now.

The other was Pola:
Ladies, be careful!
beboard.proboards23.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1094008969

---

Actually, I don't know how long Fawn took. You can ask her, but she is a special case.

Pammy went to C/baby D in three or four months (starting in April) and then to D/DD by the following February making a total of 10 months, as I remember - I could be w wr wrr wruh wrong.

I don't know how long Mominator took to get to D (or DD?).

...and then there's the subject of retention. If someone gets sick and loses significant tissue (more than a cup), that 's explainable. If someone loses for no apparent reason. Well, that's not explainable. It is a longer discussion.

Anyway, I still don't see that Dowsing is any better than trial and error. Like we all said before in some thread somewhere - the real test growing consistently and keeping the growth over time.


Wahaika

---

I'll append this to here so you can have the last word.

• See Pammy's Routine: Pammy went from April 2002 to July 2003 including 6 month break, not anywhere near 2 years. She got to "C/D (mostly D)" after the first 3 months.
  Beginning size: 32B Presents size: 32DD (or 30F depending on size chart)
  
• Pola was on LaFemme "for the first 3 months." Her post is dated August 31st. She was on BE since "January." That means she was dowsing from the end of March until the end of August - 5 months.
  
• Fawn - you will have to ask her, but as I have read, you're right. Little dowsing. I'm not sure it was enough to be considered significant. But again, that's something to ask her.
  

I'm not sure you would admit that T&E is better even in the face of overwhelming evidence.

oink.

[Wenonae]

wahaika said:

OK, just a few little things then I'll shut up.

Really, really??? Naaah, no way...

Anyway, I still don't see that Dowsing is any better than trial and error. Like we all said before in some thread somewhere - the real test growing consistently and keeping the growth over time.

Wahaika

• Pammy- went from B to DD+, that's 3+ cups over 1-2 years with the very commonly known herbs fenugreek, wild yam, and saw palmetto, massages with heat, EPO, and olive oil. There was break in there, but you're somewhere about right for her total applied NBE time. I can't remember myself anymore. Anyways, she was fortunate to respond to the 'GB' formula of those three herbs and had the smarts to tweek things.
  
• Pola's endo case- it was from the LaFemme and not doing a cleanse before starting another NBE regimen. Dowsing helped her to figure out a root cause.
  
• Fawn's growth, mostly smarts but a little dowsing involved. From B to DD, 3 cups
  
• Charky and Barb both had health complications, with dowsing grew boobs, kept growths and Charky has moved on completely. Charky grew 2 cups.
  
• Momi' made it to the high C's before/ small D's depending on the band size.
  

Well, all we need now is a participation from members in the polls. I still don't believe that even if there were numbers to show anything but trial and error doing better would u admit to anything else as a viable 'method'. However, there may come a day when I see pigs fly. We shall see.

Cassandra- You've made the best point really. It's about solid cups of growths for the woman, not who's made it to DD.

Hmmmm, maybe we should just count total cups from the two methods...

Wen'

[fawnmarie]

Sorry Wen, I did not in fact use any dowsing for BE, having reached my goal of a D cup before dowsing was introduced, and having hit the DD cup simply because I was trying out the new formula for my Mirifem supplier.

I HAVE been using it for weight loss, and it seems to be working very well for me.

I myself don't use a pendulum - I body dowse, which is probably more similar to kinesiology. And so far, it's very simple to use and I've been able to knock off 2% body fat in the last 3 weeks without losing any of the DD's and without much trouble. I probably would not have tried the approach that I dowsed, were I to go from what I know.

So, no complaints here.

But I definitely want to make sure that all the facts are straight here, and everything is very up front and accurate.

I was not aware of Pola having problems, but I'm very familiar with Barb's situation, and I know that she has been doing fine with dowsing.

Fawn

[hulagirl]

Hi! I waswondering about the liver cleanses and the progesterone cream. I have been o Tobustan for a month and I have had alot of tingling and very sore boobs until last week. I don't know if it is done or just doing something else but I don't want to get too much estrogen. where do I get this liver cleanse and what do I do with the progesterone cream. thank you for all your help.

[Wenonae]

Aaahhh, for some reason I thought you priliminarily checked/dowsed the Mirifem for use, but that was about it. No daily checks nuttin' else. Anyways, the weight loss thing in AWESOME!

[joyce]

Fawnmarie, how do you body dowse for weight loss?