Greenbush: Disturbing Report

[littlelamb]

I was browsing some old posts on the womynweb.com boards and came across a disturbing post by "panda421us" regarding Greenbush breast enhancement. The subject was I got very sick after using this product, please be careful. Her posts are as follows:

If I were considering this now using breast enlargement herbs I would never do it again. you are putting estrogen into your body and it is not safe. I got very sick from taking it and I wish I had never done it. I still have problems even over 2 years after taking this product. You cannot predict where the tissue will grow. There is nothing in your body that when you take this says "grow bigger boobs' The fact is that it is uncontrolled and the growth can be anywhere from your uterus to your ovaries to your boob and you cannot control what grows there. Your boobs will not get bigger but you may develope health problems. Please try to be happy with your bodies and love yourself, be happy to be healthy. Just because it is "natural" doesnt mean it is safe.

I was taking the greenbush natural products breast enlargement kit. I took the dosage according to the the pamphlet they sent me and according to directions for duration of time. I don't think they put anything "bad" in their product. I trust them when they say it is all natural. They are herbal hormones and it will effect the body the same as if you were taking hormones. I have a 5 inch surgical scar on my stomach from what ended up growing on my ovaries after taking the product. Never had any such problems before taking the product. I also experienced many side effects while on the product. Periods became abnormal when they had always been normal before. Like I said please be careful especially since a product is "natural" doesnt mean it is good for you, especially messing with hormones. If you must at least tell a doctor you are doing it and ask to be monitored.

I hope that women reading this will reconsider. After all of my medical problems I started doing more research into this. There are many studies on animals grazing on phytoestrogens who become infertle and have the same problems I did, including abnormal growths on their reproductive systems. They are not necessarily good for you when taken in large doses. They may be beneficial in small doses but the reason why the plant has estrogen like components is an evolutionary way to protect itself from being over eaten. The more of it that got eaten the less fertle and more sickly those animals that were grazing on it therefore allowing the plant to survive. Also Phytoestrogens will very unlikely make your breasts bigger. On the websites of the breast enlargement companies there is all of this information of how healthful these are. I felt like wow I will be doing something healthy for my body anyway. Please read more into it. Don't just trust what is said for promotional purposes. Look at the asian culture who supposedly eats many phytoestrogens. They are not known for having bigger breasts. Instead of going out to buy bigger breasts I would suggest investing in more confidence and not needing bigger breasts to feel happy. Its not worth the risk. If you weigh it and really think about is it really worth it taking something that might make you ill for the small chance that your breasts might grow? If anyone has a similar experience or questions please email me at [e-mail]. I do not want junkmail though. Thanks. [added underscore "_" to protect her email address, remove "_" in order to send email, example: [e-mail]]

source link: www.womynweb.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=85

What do you guys think? Fawn? Wahaika?

[Wenonae]

Sounds like she got a case of endometriosis after too much estrogen overload. That's the very case of at least one posting NBE'er on here. Said NBE'er has also started dowsing for NBE after having her utereus removed from too many complications from estrogen. She says these days she's in her best health ever and growing boobs.

My 2 cents, it's for this very reason that one should consider getting 'in tune' with yourself so you are less likely to needlessly endanger your health for the sake of a better 'rack'. Herbs are real and can definitely harm you if they are not used at least in an educated manner.

Good thing there's this forum with Fawn and Google!

Wen'

[fawnmarie]

The NBE'r that Wen is talking about was ALSO taking an extremely potent synthetic prescription estrogen, so I don't think you can blame that on the herbs.

What are my thoughts? Well, my thoughts are that side effects such as these is why we do liver cleanses, take breaks, and balance with progesterone cream when necessary.

My thoughts are that she was ill-informed - through both her BE process and endometriosis treatment - and should have done her research BEFORE she got in this mess, not after. I think her research into the whole area is quite incomplete (about animals and phytoestrogens, etc., because I've read plenty of lab studies that show that phytos do NOT make animals infertile (certain phytos reduce fertility, some enhance it, some show different effects on sheep than on cows, etc., and unless you know the difference between diadzein and genistein, you can't make sweeping statements about what "all phytos do to all animals".)

But I digress

However, you SHOULDN'T trust what is said for promotional purposes, and yes - too much estrogen can be a bad thing.

Fawn

[Glasskulan]

O.k I'm scared after having read about Greenbush and some possible complications... My p has indicated that I should take doses of Fenugreek, Wild yam and Saw palmetto that are much higher than those in the Greenbush enhancement blend. I have just started dowsing again and I felt quite comfortable with my new p, but yet I can't help feeling worried. I have already been through operations on my uterus and wouldn't like to go through that again... D..n

[Wenonae]

You won't have to worry about it if you're dowsing. Your p won't let you become overloaded. Pammy took the same herbs from GB in higher dosages and did fine- even without the cleanse. Use your p to help you gauge your health.

Wen'

[HoneeBee]

well this goes to shows you that you have to be careful with anything kind of "medicine" you put in your body, herbs included. herbs generally are pretty weak and for the most part they dont generally always cause endometriosis. some women are more predespose to getting this and sometimes extra estrogen can aggrevate the conditons. many women dont even know that they have it until something major happens to force them to get checked out.
there are some good precausions and strategies that can be taken to reduce the risk of getting a bad case of endometriosis. for instance taking breaks, progesterone cream, systemic enzymes, dowseing and just paying close atention to how your body responds to your routine. for most of us " no pain no gain" is the general rule. NBE can be unconfortable and painful for some. NBE is not a one size fits all sorta thing. Greenbush says take "*blank* amount of capsules a day" but that may be too much or not enough for some women. start at low dosages for 2-4 months. take a break. if nothing ramp up. take a higher dosage for 2-4 months. take a break.... etc. or you can just dowse( for some this is much easier).
before you start a BE regimine its usually a good idea to go to your doctor and get your hormones checked and make sure you dont have endometriosis to begin with.

i feel bad that the lady littlelamb posted on has had such a bad experience. but its still to remind us now and again that we are messing with some powerful stuff which we need to have some respect for.

[horselady]

Oh, wowwww. I'm coming off of a break ... a little over a month off of GB and trying to think out my next plan here. I'm a hyster .... they took EVERYTHING several year's back ... due to endometriosis. I had surgery a year ago because the endometrosis invaded my intestines and caused an obstruction. Do I need to worry about GB?? Tell me what you think: I was going to use the Mirifem Cream, start using progesterone AND go back on GB Enhancement Kit. What are your thoughts??? Is this too much? I am on HRT. Holy ... Molly ......

[fawnmarie]

Greenbush's formulas aren't really very different than anyone elses - or at least most of them.

Most of the herbal's use fenugreek, fennel, saw palmetto, and wild yam. That's the "standard".

Some use 'grain-based' formulas which include hops. Oddly enough most of these are wrongly based, having been based on certain grains - but it was a fungal infection of the grain (fusilarium) that caused the breast enlargement. (long story)

There are some specialty formulas, like Mirifem with PM in them. And some even add red clover and some other stuff for extra punch.

And then there's BO, which is entirely different.

But blaming "Greenbush" when they are just using the standard formula is silly.

Some women are more sensitive to estrogens than others. I don't understand how she ended up with a 5" scar, since the standard procedure is to use a laparoscopy which leaves a 1/2" scar inside the belly button. I know, because I had a mild case of it almost 20 years ago and had a laparoscopy, and have since never had a recurrence EVEN after using phytoestrogens AND BO.

So, it also looks like she must have let her situation get really bad before it was treated. I don't know. Something rings in this to me of someone who behaved carelessly and then blamed others.

She isn't wrong - you should look into things carefully and monitor your health and pay attention to your body. I won't disagree with her on that point. And everyone has different reactions to different substances.

Horselady, as we discussed previously, you should probably stay away from ALL internal phytoestrogens if you are having recurring bouts of endo. It really isn't safe. You should not just stay away from Greenbush, you should stay away from ALL of the internal BE products, and add progesterone. (Progesterone will help reduce the chances of recurring endometriosis growth.) Saw Palmetto would be safe for you to add - it's an anti-androgen. I forgot if you are taking test as part of your HRT.

Glass - if you had surgery because of an estrogen-sensitive condition, you too might want to reconsider. I don't know what your medical history is, so I can't comment further.

Fawn

[Wenonae]

Ladies-

If you are already estrogen dominant, it'll be easier to push your health in a bad direction by increasing it via herbs OR synthetic estrogen. Since we've got this forum, use the search options to search for your concerns. If you search all the stories on here, the one bad one, is now a good one- and she's dowsing. I wouldn't panic or stress about herbs killing us off. GB is actually one of the better commercial products out there and they've been around longer. I think they've got a quality product from good sources.

USE SOME COMMON SENSE. If you notice things going downhill, stop the herbs or the hormones or try to ask for advice pronto. If you're not in good health before beginning BE (endometriosis, PCOS, etc.) , do a liver cleanse before you even start just to be safe. If you're not sure, do a cleanse anyways. If you think you may have patience, learn to dowse- you could save yourself some time and effort and do even better keeping your health.

Wen'

[Wahaika]

Hello everyone,

I've been out all week and just got back yesterday. Some thoughts:

Phytoestrogens are a thousand times, if not more, weaker than real estrogen. I get a little weary of some folks referring to phytoestrogens as real estrogen.

Fawn hit the nail on the head in her messages above.

I have seen two similar claims on this board and both were dowsers, so the 'P' does not seem to work as advertized.

As for cattle going sterile (sheep also, in the case of Red Clover) this was due to Goat's Rue (Galega) and some further searching would show that the reason for this is in both cases was that the animals ate the whole plants and in uncontrolled conditions.

There are three problems with goat's rue that animals would not have been aware of. 1) The roots (not a part of the plant used by humans) of goat's rue contain an alkaloid toxin. 2) Goat's rue has to be harvested at a certain time - before flowering as I recall. 3) There was no control on the volume of the plant the animals were eating. Herbalists know these things and anything BE'ers would be using would not have any of those problems with the exception of overdosing which would simply cause downregulation (stalling).

A study on Genistein concluded; "...pharmacologic injections, but not dietary physiological concentrations of genistein, support surgically induced endometriosis in rats." I don't see where cattle are any better or worse of a model than rats, but the conditions of each case (controlled in a lab vs. uncontrolled in a pasture) would give me more confidence that phytos BE'ers use are safe.

I agree wholeheartedly with keeping in tune with your bodies and using common sense. I do think that if someone already has a case of endometriosis or ovarian cysts or estrogen dominance, that phytoestrogens could possibly make it worse. I have seen no evidence of this. It is only my opinion that it is a possibility because of the use of phytoestrogens to action estrogen receptors and initiate RNA sequences.

I have, however, seen plenty of evidence that phytoestrogens can help/cure many of these things including PCOS and breast cancer when used correctly.

Moral of the story: Greenbush is not to blame for pre-existing conditions and/or unconsidered conditions such as HRT or BC.


Wahaika

[Wenonae]

wahaika said:

I have seen two similar claims on this board and both were dowsers, so the 'P' does not seem to work as advertised.

Not necessarily to Wahaika, but just a general comment about his statement which someone else might believe.

Dowsing is an action and it is limited in execution according to the person using this tool- a car, it is only as good as its driver- it also can't do a thing without a person behind the wheel pulling the controls. Same with using the 'p' as a tool for dowsing- it does nothing by itself and is only as 'good' as the perosn using it.

Another good correlation would be to say that having training wheels on a bike means you won't fall over. No- that's not a true statement. The training wheels allow you a better chance until you have learned the feel of riding to help keep you from falling over and injuring yourself along the way. A bike can be a danger for the ill-trained person or to the person themselves. Same said is what dowsing can do for a person. It's a great means for a guide, but it doesn't mean someone won't ever make a mistake. However, in my opinion, it's still much better to be with a 'p' than without one as you're beginning to understand how to read the needs of your body along this hormonally-challenged path.

Wen'

[horselady]

First of all, I want to thank EVERYONE for their response to the concerns that this woman brought up. I, like all of you, don't put blame on GB or any specific product ... I put the blame, if any, on lack of knowledge. I'm very, very glad, however, that this topic came up. BECAUSE ... now I know better. And I'm very, very thankful for that knowledge ... believe me!!! There are a lot of women like me who go blundering into this stuff ... asking for advice ... receiving great advice ... but not giving full disclosure simply because we don't know any better! Anyway, this woman obviously should not have been taking ANY BE stuff with her condition. Would not have mattered if it were GB or whatever. So. Fawn ... in our previous discussions ... you were very helpful to me. Thank you very much!! At the time, though, I thought you were only referring to Mirifem when it came to not taking internal BE. It wasn't you ... I just didn't get your point. Once again ... thanks to you all for your attention to this topic.

[fawnmarie]

wahaika said:

I have seen two similar claims on this board and both were dowsers, so the 'P' does not seem to work as advertized.

As for cattle going sterile (sheep also, in the case of Red Clover) this was due to Goat's Rue (Galega) and some further searching would show that the reason for this is in both cases was that the animals ate the whole plants and in uncontrolled conditions.

Yeah, W, I don't understand what your comment about dowsing means, myself. I'm not aware of ANYONE dowsing getting any bad side effects with NBE herbs or substances. One of the women who was following "Bob's" program of super high estrogens and progesterone, even to and up to including illegally obtained pharmaceuticals, ended up with endometriosis. After surgery and recovery she learned to dowse and started implementing the program that was indicated and so far, I understand, with no bad side effects.

Another woman, actually the woman that introduced the concept of dowsing to this group, developed endometriosis on an NBE program, then learned about dowsing and implemented the program and was able to do NBE successfully without side effects.

So your comment that it was "only dowsers" having side effects of endo was only partially true. Two NBE'rs who had side effects from NBE, LATER learned to dowse and were able to accomplish NBE WITHOUT further side effects.

So, saying that it "doesn't work as advertised" is not at all true. If anything, it's just another example of how well it works!

WITHOUT dowsing, they had bad side effects on an NBE program. WITH dowsing they were able to follow an NBE program without sides.

As for Goat's Rue, it's a known abortificant (well, known to herbalists, anyway). Back in the 'old days' it was commonly used with pennyroyal as a contraceptive. It's come up on the board a couple of times as part of an NBE routine, and everytime I've seen it, I've tried to stress the fact that if you are trying to become pregnant, or would welcome such an occasion, do NOT use Goat's Rue! It's a galactagogue. One of the hormones that helps stimulate milk production, oxytocin, also stimulates spasming of the uterus and the shedding of the uterine lining. Goat's Rue can be used after pregnancy to help bring the milk down and to speed the shedding of the uterine lining. Before birth however - well you see where I'm going. It can cause miscarriage. I'm not sure how effective it is as a galactogue either, or it's usefullness as an NBE herb.

I haven't looked too much into the use of Goat's Rue, except for a short time when I was growing and using it to help normalize my periods. If it does increase oxytocin, then it could be used for some other interesting applications. Oxytocin has been found to be very important in human bonding behavior and might be useful for post-partum depression. It's also produced in couples during early mating session, in both men and women, and is a significant part of brain chemistry while "falling in love".

Anyway - yes, if the sheep are eating goat's rue, they will in fact be rendered infertile.

Fawn

[mominator]

COMMON SENSE! Bottom line. You need to pay attention to your body, if you know you have endometriosis, then BE is prolly NOT a good idea, or at the very least small doses to test with.

I have PCOS, I tried BO for 3 mos, I was miserable, terrible ovarian cysts popping, heavy-painful periods. I PAID ATTENTION, got off the stuff. This was dowsed for me btw, SO there is NO magical formula, you have to aware of your own body. EPO another thing I tried, started cramping, made sure that was the cause, haven't touched the stuff since. Oh....the BO is for sale if anyone is interested....never opened, stored in a cool dry place. [yes that was a sale pitch]

Each and every one of us has a different hormonal make-up what works for one will NOT necessarily work for the other. Looking for someone through the stats is a good starting point, similar body types, hormonal balance, things like that. And let's face it, every one of us is messing with that hormonal balance, sometimes to the good, but....there can be bad with it too.

COMMON SENSE!

[Wenonae]

mominator said:

I have PCOS, I tried BO for 3 mos, I was miserable, terrible ovarian cysts popping, heavy-painful periods. I PAID ATTENTION, got off the stuff. This was dowsed for me btw, SO there is NO magical formula, you have to aware of your own body......

Momi', some questions (which you can answer or not answer- but this is mostly food for thought for those who may have a concern). First, a dowsed list was gotten. Did you ever have someone dowse the rating of the products that you used? I know in specific of at least two different stories of regularly dowsing ladies who dowsed to use progesterone. They did not rate the product they used. As a result, one had side effects that you would have for estrogen overload because it was so ineffective, the other saw benefits but suffered no side effects. Rating is VERY important to know..anyone can not figure this important factor, but EVERYONE should. I know for myself, I can use vitamins from Wal-Mart (Spring Valley), however, some have learned Spring Valley rates as low as 5/10, which is pretty bad. Another story of different strokes for different strokes. Next, how detailed was your program- did you have someone dowse for how often you had to change dosages, did you ask someone to dowse for you if you had to ramp up? Did someone dowse for you to know if you needed breaks? Did someone dowse for you to know what dosages you should work with to use the products healthily? Did you ask for anymore help beyond a list of products?

Still, this is a very good example of where knowing only part of the picture doesn't insure that the rest can be correctly filled in. Only getting a dowsed list is just the beginning, there's still much more to know in learning to read the needs of your body. You need to know WHEN your body needs what it needs AND the best source of that need after you know WHAT you need.

Nice share, Momi'

Wen'