insight into why GLAs work?

[twilightsrose]

Hey guys... I've been doing some reading on testosterone, DHT and hirsutism, and I read in quite a few places that the GLA found in Borage Oil, Black Current and Evening Primrose Oil is believed to suppress conversion of testosterone to its derivative DHT (just like Saw Palmetto), in the hair follicles. In a couple places there was mention of using is topically as well as orally. Another possibility for treating hirsutism and another reason why it helps in BE?

Wahaika... did you ever see anything about this? I've never noticed you mention it in all the time you've recommmended Borage Oil...but maybe I missed that post. Has anyone mentioned this before?

Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find an actual reputable medical/research site which talks about it. Mostly places selling hair-loss products. Of course they all mention research studies...but I am having a heck of a time finding the studies themselves. If I do, I will add links.

[twilightsrose]

"Sebum production from the male forhead skin has also been shown to be inhibited by topical application of GLA or EGCG."

www.hkam.org.hk/publications/hkmj/article_pdfs/hkm0112p369.pdf

somethings to note: EGCG is found in green tea
I found mentioned on another website that taking GLA from a capsule/oil may not be effective, and that for the GLA to be effective it might need to be in "free form" - chemical form.

Still researching..... nothing about hair growth in the above link except a quick reference to female hirsutism.

[twilightsrose]

164.195.100.11/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1='5605929'.WKU.&OS=PN/5605929&RS=PN/5605929

very interesting information! you'll need to copy and paste the above link. I guess it was too long...

from the above link:

"In a given individual, 5.alpha.-reductase activity is found to be higher in balding skin than from hairy skin (Bingham and Shaw, 1973). Some idiopathic hirsute women have a normal circulating level of testosterone, but their affected skin has a higher 5.alpha.-reductase activity than that of nonhirsute women (Serafini and Lobo, 1985). An increased 5.alpha.-reductase activity has also been reported for skin with acne (Sansone and Reisner, 1971). "

"Biotin is a cofactor of major carboxylases which are necessary for orderly production and metabolism of fatty acids."

[twilightsrose]

from above link on acne:

"B. RESULTS

1. .gamma.-LA Inhibition of Human Forehead Sebum

In the experiment shown in FIG. 24, 0.2 ml of borage oil (containing 18% of .gamma.LA) in a gel capsule was applied to the left forehead twice daily for 23 days. During this period, L/R ratio reduced from 1.28.+-.0.03 down to 1.05.+-.0.01. After the borage oil treatment was stopped, the L/R ratio returned to 1.20.+-.0.14. The effect of borage oil on the sebum production on the left forehead was relatively small, possibly due to the fact that most .gamma.LA in the borage oil was in the form of triglyceride that did not inhibit 5.alpha.-reductase (see Table 2). Free acid released from the glyceride by nonenzymic or enzymic action was probably responsible for the effect.

After the borage oil application was stopped and the L/R ratio recovered to 1.33, 20 mg of pure .gamma.-LA was applied to the left forehead twice each day for 6 days. The L/R ratio decreased to 0.22 during this period. After the .gamma.-LA application was stopped, the L/R ratio recovered slowly to 1.20.+-.0.14 over the period of 16 days. The finding clearly showed that .gamma.-LA was superior than borage oil in quickly suppressing sebum production from forehead of a human male subject."

Could it possibly work the same way for hirsute hair follicles?

[Wahaika]

twilightsrose,

Nope, never heard of it used like that. My interest in it has always been in the production of aromatase.

Wahaika

[wsdm]

Interesting information ladies, especially the connection between GLA's and increased aromatase function. If I am to understand the enzyme aromatase converts testosterone and androgens to estrogens.

Wahaika, do you have anymore information concerning GLA increasing the production of aromatase and how?

[Wahaika]

Hello wsdm,

testosterone + aromatase = estrogen

The thing to do is to encourage the production of estrogen by encouraging the production of aromatase, and to avoid the loss of testosterone.

GLA is a precursor to aromatase. Here is a good thread that covers a lot of it:

beboard.proboards107.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1126664854

This is why we encourage eating meat, taking a multivitamin, taking Borage oil (or EPO but for GLA, Borage is better). Some Flax Seed Oils have lignands in them. The lignands in flax are aromatase inhibitors, so when selecting a flax seed oil and you have a choice between one that claims lots of lignands and one that does not (Barleans has both), take the one that does not.

Saw Palmetto keeps testosterone from converting to DHT which keeps it free to aromatize into estrogen.

Now for the fun part. The idea is to also do this as locally as possible. Some women accumulate fat in the belly, hips, thighs, and butt. This is not because their BE routine is not working, but because it is working system wide. So, one way to address this (as much as it can be addressed) is to massage in the herbs and get the body used to doing that first - like two or three times per day. This is going from the outside in, or transdermally. Going from the inside out is to take herbs internally. I could go on and on about this but I think that if I do I will detract from the point. Aromatase is a key focus for BE. The ingredients involved are red meat, Borage oil, and Saw Palmetto, and to avoid things that are anti-aromatase such as high lignand flax seed oil.

Borage oil is great for massage. Saw Palmetto is not. It's another subject, but the basic idea in a nutshell is that estrogenic herbs are what work and what should be used, not SP.


Wahaika

[wsdm]

Thanks Wahaika!

[wsdm]

Wahaika,

Hope you get to read this. I am curious about a few things

(I took a break from BE, just cause I thought I should accept myself and probably my physical limitations, several months go by I find I really cant, at least not without a valiant effort, I truly believe in BE and that one can accomplish Natural BE, I digress however)

Why read meat? I don’t eat read meat for various reasons, so if there is a compound or nutrient that is in read meat I can get elsewhere I would prefer to do that.

It appears that the trick is, and it is tricky, to get the body to deposit fat on the breasts, the question is how?

From your writing above, massaging Borage oil directly onto the breasts may have that effect?

[Wahaika]

wsdm.

Accepting yourself and engaging in BE or any other pursuit of self improvement are not mutually exclusive.

Red meat, all discussion of Prostaglandin E2 and Arachidonic Acid aside, (which, by the way turned out to prove my point [to me] on prostaglandins and aromatase production) is just something that is based in correlational, not causational data. I use the term "data" loosely. A few years ago I asked those who grew significantly if they ate red meat. They all said yes. I also noticed that Vegans did not grow at all. I am only now aware of one single vegetarian that pulled it off. But anyway, Pammy, for example (and as I remember) ate more chicken than red meat. So if you like chicken, go for it. You're probably just fine. EPO and Borage oil are the important things in that type of discussion because of their GLA content. (See Reply #6 above)

>>It appears that the trick is, and it is tricky, to get the body to deposit fat on the breasts, the question is how?

The age old question. I don't think anyone has an answer for that one yet.

>>From your writing above, massaging Borage oil directly onto the breasts may have that effect?

It sure seems to for those that stick with it. But Borage oil is not sufficient by itself. There needs to be a phytoestrogen such as fenugreek or fennel, and sometimes red clover. The best way that I know of to do this is to use Greenbush extracts and aloe vera gel and a heated pad. It should be done no less than once per day, preferably more like three. It should be kept up all the time. Maybe do one herb in the morning and a different one in the evening. Some women keep their batter on all day. Those are usually ones that have something like fenugreek powder steeped into an olive oil/borage oil mix.

[mandy]

I was wondering Wahaika, if you would feel generous enough to suggest a BE routine? It sounds like you have done quiet a bit of research on this area. Also, a question, do you think DHEA would enhance or hinder BE? I have read that it is slightly androgenic which is why I quit taking it. I was afraid I might develope facial hair. I did take it however most of the summer. I took 2 1/2-5 mg a day. It gave me energy. Now, though, I would like to try out this BE stuff and see if it works. I am 37 yrs old, 5.5 and 150 lbs. I have kids. I also have a somewhat slow metabolism, get cold easily etc. My measurements are: 33 1/2 underneath and 37" across the widest part of my breasts. Oh, and I also have arthritis, so if there are any supplements that may help both BE and arthritis that would be great for me. Do you or anyone else have any suggestions for a routine? And does anyone have any knowledge on the DHEA? I do appreciate your time in answering.

[Wenonae]

mandy said:

I was wondering Wahaika, if you would feel generous enough to suggest a BE routine? It sounds like you have done quiet a bit of research on this area. Also, a question, do you think DHEA would enhance or hinder BE? I have read that it is slightly androgenic which is why I quit taking it. I was afraid I might develope facial hair. I did take it however most of the summer. I took 2 1/2-5 mg a day. It gave me energy. Now, though, I would like to try out this BE stuff and see if it works. I am 37 yrs old, 5.5 and 150 lbs. I have kids. I also have a somewhat slow metabolism, get cold easily etc. My measurements are: 33 1/2 underneath and 37" across the widest part of my breasts. Oh, and I also have arthritis, so if there are any supplements that may help both BE and arthritis that would be great for me. Do you or anyone else have any suggestions for a routine? And does anyone have any knowledge on the DHEA? I do appreciate your time in answering.

Mandy-

Please go to the Routines section/folder for suggestions and ideas.

Wahaika has posted his "wife's" regimen there which shares more thoughts on how to devise a routine which ramps up the dosage to find the right one for you.

Search 'routine', 700 days, Routines folder, posts by Wahaika.

Wen'

[mandy]

Thank you Wen,
that was very nice of you. I will certainly do that. I still was curious if DHEA has any effect on BE whether good or bad. Has that been addressed previously also? There is so much here to look through.

[Wenonae]

mandy said:

Thank you Wen,
that was very nice of you. I will certainly do that. I still was curious if DHEA has any effect on BE whether good or bad. Has that been addressed previously also? There is so much here to look through.

In regards to BE, DHEA doesn't not positively help unless you're deficient. If you take it and you are not, expect effects such as increase in hairiness on your body.

There's so much to look at, sometimes I get lost and I was here from when it began. Take your time...start w/ routines section first and the pinned threads at the top of the folder.

Wen'

[Wahaika]

Hello Mandy, I would be happy to help with your routine.

The best place to start is the stats section, followed by the routines section. You already have a good start. I need to know a few more things:

Sex: Female
Age: 37
Number of Children:
Were any breastfed?, and for how long:
Height: 5' 5"
Weight: 150
Bust: 37"
underbust: 33.5"
Cup:
Width Measurement each side:

Notes: arthritis, slow metabolism, get cold easily etc.

For arthritis, see this thread:
beboard.proboards107.com/index.cgi?board=NonBE&action=display&thread=1138685976

For slow metabolism you are looking at something like Kelp, L-Tyrosine, and B vitamins. Weight bearing exercise will also speed you up and turn up the furnace.

I would normally suggest looking through the routines section, but Wenonae is conducting a test for a product she is selling and the first few pages that you see are pretty much by women who are trying it out since about a month ago, so you would have to dig more than usual to see a broad variety of routines. In addition to EE based routines, see this thread for more information:

beboard.proboards107.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1161290868&page=1

For some good reading on well thought out routines (they are all well thought out), check these routines:

Madredesiete's Routine (Modified Greenbush routine and has some good reading on BE theory)
beboard.proboards107.com/index.cgi?board=Routines&action=display&thread=1074738958

Pammy's Routine: (A modified Greenbush routine)
beboard.proboards107.com/index.cgi?board=Routines&action=display&thread=1067723277

Mominator's Routine:
beboard.proboards107.com/index.cgi?board=Routines&action=display&thread=1067488986

EnglishChick's Routine:
beboard.proboards107.com/index.cgi?board=Routines&action=display&thread=1136989024

When you are ready, post a message in the general section and there are plenty of knowledgeable women here to help. I will also be happy to make suggestions. You can then gather all that information and take your best shot.

Good luck!!

Wahaika