Palm reading anyone?

[Wahaika]

Folks, I can stand for this no longer without saying something.

I remember when Peter Kreskin was the popular in the late 60's early 70's. Pendulums and ouija boards were the craze back then.

The facts are, and were understood then, that there are only three forces that would move a pendulum or parts of a ouija board.

Being in tune with your own bodies is a very worthwhile skill to develop and is much more reliable.

When did idolatry and witchcraft replace the infinitely more desirable skill of being in tune with your own body?

Wahaika

[fawnmarie]

Wahaika,

Using a pendulum doesn't qualify as "Idoltry".

And "witchcraft" (Wicca and other "witchcraft" traditions) are recognized and legitimate religions in the US and many parts of Europe.

I HOPE you weren't intending some kind of religious slur.

A pendulum is simply a measuring tool for getting in touch with one's body and the forces that affect it. Witchcraft is all about being in touch with one's body. Such tools, whether pendulums or rosaries or incense, crosses or crescents, are simply symbols that the conscious mind uses to "speak" to the unconscious and the conscious collective (what Buddhists refer to as "The One Mind" and what Christians refer to as the "Holy Ghost" and Witches refer to as the "Higher Self"). They are all just measuring tools to talk to the force known as "grace".

Just because you don't like the symbols or can't "read" that language, is no reason to be condescending.


Fawn

[marshall97]

Wahaika,
I don't know anything about pendulums. What are the three forces by which they can be moved?

I didn't find your post condescending BTW.

M97

[mominator]

You know, I don't think it's fair to SLAM people's beliefs. We all KNOW that a major part of BE is a "positive" attitude...if Dowsing is offering that for some, then GO FOR IT! They are not praising anything but getting in touch with their own bodies. I have that ability without the use of "symbol", but MANY people do not have that ability and to knock it is wrong.

I think you might have stepped on a land mine here...if it is working for some...the so be it. There is nothing wrong with getting help to get in touch with your own temple. In fact two of the MAJOR believers in Dowsing are devote Christians, I KNOW they are NOT praising anything, simply getting in touch with their bodies.

If it makes them "positive" then go for it. I refused to try "hypnosis" due to religious believes. So who are you to say what is "right" what is "wrong", let them decide.

Okay...ready to get some nasty posts back. But we cannot "knock" other's alternative methods that may or may not be working for them.

I have gotten a lot of "negative" attitudes for using testosterone. But I KNOW it's right for me, so I continue. That is being in tune with my body. Just cuz other's are concerned or don't feel I should try it, does that mean I stop, NOPE! I go by my intuition & it's working out great so far.

Of soap box now!

[marshall97]

Actually, Mominator, it apparently IS perfectly okay to SLAM people's beliefs. Both you and Fawn just slammed Wahaika's. But, I am sure neither of you see it that way.
There are many, many people on this board who think dowsing is great. There are also many, many people who think it is rediculous. It's just an opinion. And, I think the board can do without the "holier-than-thou" lectures that frequently get posted when someone says something that Fawn/Mominator does not agree with. It happens way too often in my humble opinion. Maybe the PM option we have on this board could be used for that kind of "personal" response.
M97

[princess26]

Just thought I would step in here and toss in my 2 cents on this one....Read it or skip it...your choice!
I think that the title of this thread, in relation to the thoughts behind the post, offend me. I am dowsing as are others. I don't see this as witchcraft or whatever...I DO see this as being in touch with my body and what I am supposed to be taking for NBE.
First of all, none of us are trying to channel spirits or whatever! So why imply that we are practicing witchcraft?
Secondly, I highly believe that everyone is entitled to their opinions, but where in the world did this come from? Those of us who are in fact dowsing, are not posting our routines, results, methods, etc. in the general section unless there is a post that poses a question about it there. We have an alternative section on this board that we post there...and I think I can speak for all of us on this one....I think we all understand that not all on this board(members or lurkers) are open to this method or even agree with it...BUT, I don't see a reason to even create a thread in this section that basically does "slam" what we are doing.
There are many things that I don't agree with...but I think that, again, that would be MY opinion...and I would not create a thread to say something completely negative about someone elses beliefs.
Please understand that not everyone is going to agree with what any of us are doing...and that is fine...I just hope that some are more open to accept the fact that the norm doesn't always work. Those of us using this method are trying to acheive 2 main goals. One, to be more intune with our bodies...and two, to grow the boobs just like the rest of you.
Please don't slam us because you don't agree or don't like it...You know what they say...If u can't say something nice....don't say anything at all.
,
Kelly
P.S. M97, I don't think that Fawn or Momi slammed his beliefs...I think it was more like defending the beliefs of others on the board. He IS the one who created this thread and I think that if he didn't want backlash, then maybe some opinions should be kept to oneself.

[Wahaika]

Hello, (It's a long one - sorry)

I am truly happy for those of you who have had success while dowsing. I am a little puzzled why you give an inanimate object so much credit.

As I've been reading up on Dowsing on various web sites, I am a little amuzed at the circus like style of the web sites - the serious ones!

Where are your routines?
Where are your records?
Where is the thought and planning that I have seen you all do before?

From my point of view, you are trading your hard earned skill for nonsense, perhaps even a dangerous practice. Hypnosis didn't work. Now it's dowsing. What next? Ouija boards? Then what? Palm reading?

Alright, on with answering your questions. I'll begin with Fawn.

Being Buddist you may not know some of this so the misunderstanding is OK.

• In Christianity there is no higher spiritual self in the sense that Eastern religions refer to it. The closes thing to it is what we call spiritual rebirth or being "born again" (another subject).
  
• The Holy Ghost is a he, not a what. He is an individual, not some imagination or extension of a higher self or some force of nature.
  
• Grace is not a force, it is a state of charity and sometimes approval.
  
• Catholics or other Christian religions don't pray to rosaries, or crosses. As for statues, you'll have to ask a Catholic.
  

Dowsers are talking to an inanimate object and assigning it intelligence. Christians should know better. Dowsing is condemned in the Old Testament in a couple of places.

>>And "witchcraft" (Wicca and other "witchcraft" traditions) are recognized and legitimate religions in the US and many parts of Europe.

So what? Vodoo and Satan worship are also recognized. Do we bow in reverence to anything that anyone wants to put the label "religion" on?

>>I HOPE you weren't intending some kind of religious slur.

I don't remember reading where anyone considered dowsing as part of their religion. Mominator says I'm attacking people's beliefs. Isn't it interesting how dowsing doesn't qualify as idolatry, in the most restrictive sense of the word, but here come these hints that I might be attacking someone's religion. OK, who will be the first to say that dowsing is part of their religion?

As for being condesending, I was not trying to be so. I was just a bit torqued off. What started all of this was a post by a new member referring to dowsing as a normal part of what this board does. That just turned my stomach. Everyone has worked so hard to discover the science behind BE and make it work in each case if the ability exists. Now someone has you all talking to inanimate objects and expecting answers back and giving it the credit for success. That borders on idolatry.

BTW, I have read where you are not too successfull at this. Would you like to venture a guess why? Let me try. You are far too reasonable and objective for this hocus pocus. You are trained in what constitutes a study and how to do reliable research. I don't know about you but being able to explain the science discovered here behind BE to a lurker who is now ready to try seems more reliable than "well, I just asked the pendulum."

M97:
Thanks for the moral support. It is very much appreciated.
I made the statement that there are only three forces that move inanimate objects. 1. God can move inanimate objects. 2. Satan can move inanimate objects. 3. The dowser themself can inadvertently move the pendulum subcontiously or with their own bodily rythms.


Mominator:
>>If it makes them "positive" then go for it. I refused to try "hypnosis" due to religious believes. So who are you to say what is "right" what is "wrong", let them decide.

Who do I have to be? I hope that the above identifies me as a concerned friend. While I don't subscribe to "if it feels good, do it", I have avoided offending anyone's beliefs as much as possible. But when it gets into things like this, I feel a need to at least issue a warning. If it is not the dowser who moves the pendulum, then who/what is moving it? Not God. (Hypnosis is against my religious beliefs too.)

>>I have gotten a lot of "negative" attitudes for using testosterone. But I KNOW it's right for me, so I continue. That is being in tune with my body. Just cuz other's are concerned or don't feel I should try it, does that mean I stop, NOPE! I go by my intuition & it's working out great so far.

I don't understand the negative behind using testosterone. I have always thought that this was a good idea in the way that you are doing it. But you did the thinking on your own right?!!! It was your decision and not a piece of metal, and that is the difference. YOU made the decision. YOU thought it out. Big difference.

Kelly:

Sorry to offend but offence is really beside the point.

>>I don't see this as witchcraft or whatever...I DO see this as being in touch with my body and what I am supposed to be taking for NBE.

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.

>>First of all, none of us are trying to channel spirits or whatever! So why imply that we are practicing witchcraft?

I didn't say anyone, including Charky, was intentionally trying to do this. All I can say at this point is to do some research because if you are not inadvertently moving the pendulum then there is only one other force with an interest in you thinking that it is the pendulum. What force moves a ouija board? Same principle.

>>I think we all understand that not all on this board(members or lurkers) are open to this method or even agree with it...BUT, I don't see a reason to even create a thread in this section that basically does "slam" what we are doing.

But that's not what happened. A lurker/new member came in and wanted to start with dowsing as if that was the major routine. At least that's how I read it.

If it's OK for dowsers to promote the idea (slamming my beliefs) why can't I denounce the idea? I put it the way I did to make a point of where I am coming from, not to offend. Sorry to offend you, it was not my intention to offend, just to make a point.

---

Well Y'all, I guess I am out of balance and have bad Karma. Woe is me! I have stated my side honestly and a bit strongly but hopefully not offensively even though some may take offence. If dowsing is so great, does it not stand to reason that it can withstand such criticism?

Anyone in favor of a little test on the spiritual side? Don't ask your questions out loud. Think them. Ask your questions in random order but don't write the order down, just remember it. Do it all in your head. I would be interested in the result after a couple of weeks.

BTW folks, If you use a ring and it starts to spin clockwise, you may be interested to know that it is because of the earth's rotation. Those on the other side of the equator, like in Australia, could expect to see it go counter clockwise first. That is why water goes down the drain in the other direction and dust devils rotate in the other direction.

Don't dowse to try to predict the future - that's how you prove it wrong.

If you get nothing out of this message, please remember this: For those of you who want to do dowsing, PLEASE keep records of what you are doing in terms of dosages. It may be that you have stumbled onto a principle of BE that would go unnoticed because all the credit was being given to a pendulum. Has it occured to anyone that a new method of cycling/staggering dosages may have been discovered? Did anyone take notes? (!)

Wahaika

[princess26]

Wahaika,
There are a few things that I want to make very clear...
#1. I don't know of any of us using this method who are asking our questions out loud. I believe we are all asking in our minds.
#2. I understand your concern with the new members dowsing questions...but have you thought of the possiblity that some lurk for quite some time, while on a "regular" NBE routine and possibly had seen no results. And isn't it possible that this is NOT their first attempt. I am not sure about the post in which you are refering to, but just a thought.
#3. You made a statement about who moves the pendulum...and stated that it WAS NOT God. Well, my question is this:
Are you in fact God? I don't mean to sound as though you can't have your own personal beliefs, but how do you really know? Everyone is entitled to make up their own minds in what works best for them. As did I! I just think the statement of it not being possible to be God...well, I guess it depends on what you believe in and what you "think" is possible. If your mind is closed to this...then it won't work. It's something that one has to be open to...extremely open.
The point that I was trying to get across in the first post is this:
I think that it is fine to agree to disagree with ones methods, beliefs etc....But why create a post that pretty much says we have not researched anything we are doing? You have never asked me personally if I have done any type of research on this...have you asked anyone else?
#4. What do you mean where are the routines and the records? I think I can speak for those of us who are dowsing when I say that we all thought it best to wait until a certain point that we had been doing this to post anything like that. My opinion on this as far as routines are involved, is that I don't know of any one of us who have even remotely the same routine...and to even say routine maybe isn't the best word...I say that because doses can change alot, as well as herbs taken. Also, atleast for me, I don't want anyone to see any given "routine" posted and think that it would be universal. As we have proven many times, what works for one, will NOT work for everyone!
I cannot say if all of us have taken notes, but I do know of those who do. I think that we wanted to have a section (alternatives section) to start with so any questions could be addressed and just a basic forum for us. The reasoning behind this was because of the fact that we all knew there would be some that didn't even want to hear about something like this...So, I think that we will wait just a while longer to post "routines" and our notes. We want to be a little more structured than that.
Okay, well I think that I addressed everything that I wanted to touch on here.
And yes, I was very offended by the thread you created...and probably more so now that it sounds like you are saying we haven't researched any of this. Just like you said, to ask in your head and not out loud...but addressed that above...pretty much sums it up there on how I feel.
Kelly

[Wahaika]

Kelly,

#1. Good!

#2. Good Thought!

#3.
>>"Are you in fact God? "
LOL!

>>I don't mean to sound as though you can't have your own personal beliefs, but how do you really know?

My answer to this question has resulted in "casting your pearls before swine." It has been deleted.

>>Everyone is entitled to make up their own minds in what works best for them. As did I!

I never said otherwise. I just don't agree that it is a good choice. I never said that anyone could not make up their own mind. If you read my paragraph to Mominator, you can see that I am in agreement with that. But Dowsing is not making up your own mind. To claim that it is is to claim that you are choosing to give up your choice - one dosage at a time rather than all at once as in hypnosis (not self).

>>I just think the statement of it not being possible to be God...well, I guess it depends on what you believe in and what you "think" is possible.

I don't know where you are at spiritually speaking, so my answer would sound condescending - but here it goes anyway. God exists in a certain form. Whatever that form may be, we cannot change or alter it. He is who He is regardless of what people make up. I never said that it is impossible for God to move a pendulum. I did imply that He would never do that, at least under these conditions. Based on what I know about Him, He would not.

>>If your mind is closed to this...then it won't work. It's something that one has to be open to...extremely open.

It's not a matter of a closed mind. It's a matter of the way it is. God's house is a house of order. Pendulums don't move themselves. Agree? You are either doing it yourself unknowingly or another force is doing it. Agree so far? I am simply stating that the other force is not God.

Now if you had said that you had prayed to God for answers on BE, that is another story completely. But I don't see where God enters the picture between you and a pendulum.

Not to be offensive or condescending, but that's just the way it is. No need to believe me - You can know for yourself too.

#4.
a. If you are waiting to post metric information, I hope it was at least kept. That is what I really meant, not necessarily that it had to be posted. A lot could be learned about yourself by keeping records of what you do from the beginning. Then, when it goes from "wait and see" to "it worked or it didn't" then you at least have a track record to go by. Something more concrete for you to evaluate. It doesn't get any more stuctured than that for what you are doing.

b. Separate section is a good idea, but new members don't post there. They post in the newbee section and the general section. And rightfully so, dowsing or not.

c. So you have researched dowsing? What research led you to decide to try it?

My comment on research was in answer to what you said:
>>First of all, none of us are trying to channel spirits or whatever! So why imply that we are practicing witchcraft?
I was hoping you would at least do a search on Google to try and learn more about the history and origin of dowsing. I search on simply 'Dowsing' and 'Dowsing Chakra'. Plenty of results came up. Many were very interesting on both sides of the issue.

Wahaika

[Wenonae]

Wahaika said:

Hello, (It's a long one - sorry)

I am truly happy for those of you who have had success while dowsing. I am a little puzzled why you give an inanimate object so much credit.

As I've been reading up on Dowsing on various web sites, I am a little amuzed at the circus like style of the web sites - the serious ones!

Where are your routines?
Where are your records?
Where is the thought and planning that I have seen you all do before?

From my point of view, you are trading your hard earned skill for nonsense, perhaps even a dangerous practice. Hypnosis didn't work. Now it's dowsing. What next? Ouija boards? Then what? Palm reading?

...... Did anyone take notes? (!)

Wahaika

Sir, I don't know even where to start. For beginners, you're posting as if you're defending the right to grow your OWN boobs in a science-lab, text book manner...and done any other way (especially openly discussing dowsing with a GROWN 'newbie' woman, who can read and make her own decisions) is heiracy because of your 'relationship' with God.

You're not the only 'semi-intelligent' researcher here...we've all dug in collectively to learn about this process, and believe me, the dowsers are further ahead for this experience than not.

I'll begin by saying that the most interesting thing about this whole new NBE journey for ALL dowsers, is how closely our patterns reflect ALL the research we've learned on BEB. Each regime that's been dowsed usually has one:

• ramping up slowly
• somtimes using progesterone to grow supporting glands
• use of generally one type of estrogen source phytos or glandular
• use of PR-blockers with glandular or herbal regimes
• reiki vs. regular massage with specific agents ranging from EPO, olive oil, to infamous phyto-estrogen boobie batter
• breaks
• timing of dosages
• even when to eat (wait at least a half hour b4..or 1.5-2hours after for herbs, for example). Some have learned that they should HAVE something in the tummy when they take doses...all in the first go!

Mind you, I've been collating all of this information, and feel VERY secure in progress being made, and therefore comfortably share this method as means of determining the personal 'magic' regime, which we are ALL in search of. What you're suggesting is continuing to do things the hard way. I could see if no one was seeing results, but we are. How do u explain that away? We're blowing away any stats or claims posted anywhere for NBE success...and ALL the routines are DIFFERENT. Not one pill, not one regime, not one type nothing...the best demonstration of how diff folks need diff things.

Fyi, I AM keeping detailed notes. No, I DO NOT speak my queries outloud, and yes it still works . BTW, hypnosis does not access the same parts of the brain. Also, dowsing confirms that hypnosis itself is simply a means for relaxation for me, not a means to an end. Studies have been done on dowsers vs. meditators and devote monks in prayer mode, and those folks STILL don't have the brain 'readings/output' of the experienced dowers. I AM a Christian..but I know being one doesn't mean being only one/church-minded nor thinking that God can communicate only thru some breath or whisper in my ear. God is GREAT..and he can use WHATEVER means the we humanly understand. If that's a ball on a thread...then keep it simple for me! And do you REALLY read the Bible for yourself? There are several references to rods who 'made decisions'...what do you really think those were?

Your whole discussion is like those days of old when just because it couldn't be seen or mentally grasped, meant it did not exist. There was a time when lots of folks actually believed the world was flat, and the that planets rotated around the earth. Point being...just because YOU can understand, doesn't make it heiracy, evil, or that it doesn't work. Continue reading up..and you'll see as u continue to dig into dowsing, that most references say that you can not induce 'evil'..that if it's done..it's a reflection of the person inside and the probably use of a crystal (which seems to be able to hold other types of energies).

Hold tight to your pants...your wished for charts and progress pics will be coming shortly from this end. Others have been tracking their progress, and yes trends are being observed..but still, each person is a particular case..there's still no one singular thread.

..and, you can bet your bottom dollar I won't be summoning up the Headless Horseman on some Ouija board to ask about growing my breasts![/size]

[MYSTery]

I'm not going to say much, except for- "Wow"
(since its all been said already, and I see very good points from ALL views).

Myst

Freedom of thought and speech-I love it! What a bore it would be if we didn't all have opinions..?

[fawnmarie]

Would somebody PLEASE wrap my skull in duct tape so that when my head explodes I won't get frontal lobe chunks in the Chex Mix!!!!

Hooo boy!

>>Being Buddist you may not know some of this so the misunderstanding is OK.

I am very familiar with Christian dogma. Buddhism was a choice.

>> [/li][li]In Christianity there is no higher spiritual self ...

I don't know of any Christian tradition that does not recognize the existance of the soul.

>>[/list]
Dowsing is condemned in the Old Testament in a couple of places.

Cheeseburgers and haircuts are ALSO condemned in the Old Testament. What's your point?

Besides - we ain't ALL Christians on this board. There are women from all walks of life and religions and cultures on here.

It may also be considered arrogant of you to think that the other Christians here want your opinion of the matter and to tell them they should "know better". Who are you to say so? Are you their pastor? Are you their priest?

No, you're just some guy on the internet cruising booby boards. That doesn't say a lot of about your religious credibility. (Actually, it speaks volumes, just nothing good.)

>>Do we bow in reverence to anything that anyone wants to put the label "religion" on?

Of course not -which is why you should also not be pushing your brand of "religion" here? Buddhism is 500 years older than Christianity. Does that make it more valid? There is a difference between reverence and respectfulness.

>>I don't remember reading where anyone considered dowsing as part of their religion. Mominator says I'm attacking people's beliefs.

Yes - you are suggesting that that others are practicing evil acts on the basis of your own religion.

>>Isn't it interesting how dowsing doesn't qualify as idolatry, in the most restrictive sense of the word, but here come these hints that I might be attacking someone's religion. OK, who will be the first to say that dowsing is part of their religion?

1. Idoltry is praying to objects as if they were gods. Dowsers are is NOT praying to an object. They are USING objects.

2. You called the practitioners of dowsing "idolterers and witches". That's a religious slur on them. The term "witch" isn't an insult, per se - but the term "idolterers" certainly is. (Sorry about the spelling, their is no concept of idolotry in Buddism.)

3. You inferred that "witchcraft" (or Wicca) is not a valid path to self-knowledge. This is a religious slur. Wicca is a recognized and accepted religion that brightens many lives and brings peace to those who practice it. It is just as valid and deserves the same respect as any other religion.

>>As for being condesending, I was not trying to be so. I was just a bit torqued off. What started all of this was a post by a new member referring to dowsing as a normal part of what this board does.

Then why didn't you post it as a response to that thread, instead of randomly dropping it into the "General" discussion?

You are presenting yourself as being morally superior to others - to those of other faiths and to other Christians. That's condescending.

>> Now someone has you all talking to inanimate objects and expecting answers back and giving it the credit for success. That borders on idolatry.

Just because the science of the psychology behind it is beyond your comprehension, doesn't mean you can call it "witchcraft" and condemn it.

Well, you can - but there's that "flat world" thing again.

>>BTW, I have read where you are not too successfull at this. Would you like to venture a guess why? Let me try.


Actually I can get it work for me just fine, but I don't chose to do it. With all respect to those who practice it, I find it tedious and time consuming. I'm just not willing to put the time into it. I'm too lazy. And since I'm already in a 36D, I don't feel motivated to continue.

Using the pendulum is about nothing more than symbolism and it's effect on the brain and subsequentally the brain's effect on the body. It's a way of reading the subconscious mind and applying that knowledge in the real world.

"We are what we think. All that we are arises with our thoughts. With our thoughts, we make the world. "
- Buddha


>>You are far too reasonable and objective for this hocus pocus. You are trained in what constitutes a study and how to do reliable research.

>>I made the statement that there are only three forces that move inanimate objects. 1. God can move inanimate objects. 2. Satan can move inanimate objects. 3. The dowser themself can inadvertently move the pendulum subcontiously or with their own bodily rythms.


You are going to tell ME about being too reasonable and analytical for dowsing and then have the gall to suggest that Satan is moving the pendulums?

OH BROTHER!!!!
(sound of milk coming out of nose)

If it is okay for you to believe that invisible friends and evil boogeymen move the pendulum - then it is equally valid for the dowsers to feel that earth energy moves the pendulum.

At least we have some measurable proof of earth energy (magnetism and gravity) - we have no scientific readings of the presense of God or Satan.

(Which is probably all for the best, if you think about it.)

Belief is NOT an argument against belief!

Besides - who are you to say that God DOESN'T move the pendulum?

As for the person moving the pendulum themself, subconsciously - is that not valid? Subconsiously we know what we need. Subconsiously we know what is good for us and what isn't. God created us with subconscious minds, and he/she/it built it to program itself in response to situations during life to enhance our survival.

God is a lot more clever than you or I, Horatio - everything God put here is for a reason. Your lack of understanding of it doesn't invalidate God's reason for creating it. You insult God by dismissing the complexity of God's design.

>>I didn't say anyone, including Charky, was intentionally trying to do this. All I can say at this point is to do some research because if you are not inadvertently moving the pendulum then there is only one other force with an interest in you thinking that it is the pendulum. What force moves a ouija board? Same principle.

Oh brother - Satan again? Tell me more about "scientific research"!



Personally, I think both the pendulums and ouji board plates are moved subconsciously and this is a perfect valid system.

But since you are a fundamentalist Christian, your misunderstanding of modern psychology is ok.


Cont'd...

[fawnmarie]

>>If it's OK for dowsers to promote the idea (slamming my beliefs) why can't I denounce the idea?

Promoting the idea is not "slamming" your beliefs. You don't even have breasts (we can assume) so none of it even applies to you at all. No one is telling anyone NOT to pray because it's evil or silly.

Slamming your beliefs would be an intentional remark directed at you or others who believe like you degrading your beliefs.

People you barely know talking about things you don't agree with and don't understand is not a slam or a slur. I am not "slamming" Muslims when I eat with my left hand. I am not "slamming" Christians when I don't celebrate Easter.

I'm not slamming you when I meditate and I won't consider it a slam if you swat flies eithers.

You're pushing a religious philosphy about a procedure you don't chose to understand. And you can't even conceive that your opinion may not be welcome. That's more than condescending, it's santimonious and arrogant.

You are making a claim that dowsing is superstitious nonsense on the basis of MORE superstitious nonsense.

Two wrongs don't make a right - sorry. Either it's "Superstitious Nonsense" or Possibly Valid - it cannot be just the "Wrong Brand" of superstitious nonsense.

>>Well Y'all, I guess I am out of balance and have bad Karma. Woe is me! I have stated my side honestly and a bit strongly but hopefully not offensively even though some may take offence. If dowsing is so great, does it not stand to reason that it can withstand such criticism?

Please don't use the term "reason" and then tell me it's "Satan" moving the pendulum.

And yes - it IS extremely offensive. As a non-Christian, I feel offended that you feel that your personal religious philosphy needs to be posted on a non-religious forum, and then arrogantly stating that it's the "WAY IT IS" (I think you said).

It's NOT the way it is - it's what YOU believe ("Belief" being a function of the subconscious to modify social behavior to enhance survival in a group-oriented society.)

It is not only "offensive" - it's downright frightening to think you actually think you have some kind of "in" with the nature of God above and beyond other believers.

In history, sometimes people like that have been called "prophets", but just as often, they have been called "Charcoal".

I think the Christians might be offended at your arrogance for thinking that you can dictate to them what is Christian behavior and what isn't. I will not speak for them. But if it were me, I think I would be offended by a stranger, telling me what kind of Christian I'm supposed to be.


I really have to wonder why a man who is so concerned with the state of everyone's soul as it relates to his Christian beliefs is doing on an internet forum with a bunch of women who are not his wife, discussing their naughty bits and looking at pictures of their boobies? Is this some kind of rationizatized substitute for internet porn, or something?

It's hypocritical to argue for reason and science and then drag Satan into the equation. Your argument that dowsing is not valid seems to be based on your belief that Satan is intervening, not on any real clinical and objective trials of the process. Or any rational explanation of why it will or will not work. Your argument is null and void. Neither "Belief" has any scientific evidence of validity. One cannot be made to argue against the other.

It's hypocritical to claim to a morally superior Christian man and then participate in this women's forum where discussions involve their sexual body parts. (I think that's in the NEW Testament.) By your own rules and beliefs you should not even be here to discuss this at all and what you are doing is sinful! I don't think Jesus would do this.

(Buddha would tell me not to be so attached to the physical form, because vanity is a trap of samsara that spreads pain. He would be right (of course) and he would laugh. )

If you are going to base your position on reason - then BE reasonable and keep your personal relationship with God out of it, and develop a personal relationship with a psychology text.

If you are interested in your immortal soul (if you believe in one) - or righteousness - then do you think you should be here at all?

But hypocrites shouldn't throw stones in glass houses.

(or is it hypocrites shouldn't count their chickens before they walk a mile in your shoes...?)

Whatever.

Just figure out where you stand exactly and get back to us when you land it somewhere.

But don't try to argue that something is nonsense with more nonsense!

And please be respectful of other's beliefs.

I don't use dowsing. I don't agree that it works the way some people think it works. I don't think it's dangerous, or idolatry or witchcraft. I think it's a way of understanding the subconscious mind.

I am not arrogant enough to think I know every pore and wrinkle in the face of God's creation.

Fawn
(Hypocrite & Firmly Attached to Samsara.)

[mominator]

Fawn could NOT have said it better! And I am a devote Christian! I follow the Holy Spirit through EVERYTHING in my life.

Wahaika: You have to remember that the Lord does NOT place "convictions" the same to every child. What is a strong conviction to one, may not be to another. Neither do I believe "if it feels good, it's right!". For those who KNOW me on the board, KNOW this is NOT my motto....but if the "spirit" sends it...I will NOT back down. This they know too!

[Wahaika]

Are there any more ad hominem daggers coming my way?

Speak now please, I would like to reply to all the delusional hate mail in as few messages as possible.

Wahaika