|
|
Post by Moderator on Nov 11, 2003 11:34:02 GMT -5
From: gigi (Original Message) Sent: 5/16/2003 6:54 AM
Hi Fawn,
I know you use cycling in BO usage. Could a customized version of that principal be applied to Herbal BE? Body builders employ cycling to achieve their goals as well. Perhaps for those of us who seem to become resistant to or shut down from the herbs, a break in the action might be beneficial.
On another note, I finally have gotten some tingling after having used the saw palmetto extract topically. Perhaps the principal of opposition is working here. No increase in size yet; just the sensation. Instead of lotion I apply aloe vera juice during massage.
Regarding yohimbe, I've been using extract that I've had on my stomach with the aloe vera as a trial run. I did get a killer headache one time and cut back on the amount but it seems to be working. Surprising since I didn't think there was enough yohimbine in it to make a difference.
gigi
|
|
|
|
Post by Moderator on Nov 11, 2003 11:34:21 GMT -5
From: Mominator5 Sent: 5/16/2003 1:21 PM
Hi Gigi,
I was wondering the same thing about cycling and BE (no not bicycle). Because I definately know I do not grow 10 days to a week before my mensus, but during....Look out Mount St. Helens! (don't I wish) But they do seem to grow during those lovely days and after until the next 10 days before.
I bet Fawn could answer this question? (hint Fawn)
Mominator
|
|
|
|
Post by Moderator on Nov 11, 2003 11:34:36 GMT -5
From: Wenonae_ Sent: 5/16/2003 5:15 PM
Ladies,
I was really thinking along those same lines. I was thinking of alternating between 1800mg to 2400mg every month to keep my body hopping, and to take a 2-3 day break before my cycle comes. I did think by accident, just recently (went on a short trip home for Mother's Day and couldn't take pills or drink protein). Then as soon as the plane hit the ground on the return home, my Aunt was here. I got back on track..and I tell you, just Wed, my BF was saying my 'girls' were softer.
I hoping this is growth that's going to stay around....but, since I'm on Depo, I can only do the skip days thing (when progesterone is high and BO probably less effective) once every 3 mos.
Fingers are crossed!
|
|
|
|
Post by Moderator on Nov 11, 2003 11:34:59 GMT -5
From: fawnmarie42 Sent: 5/17/2003 4:52 PM
Mom,
You don't grow before your period because your progesterone level is high - breast growth occurs in stages and it seems that it requires a period of high estrogen with low progesterone to get growth - and afterwards progesterone needs to "finish off" the growth. This is the cycle of puberty - high estrogen, with intermittent progesterone production for a period of about 4-6 years.
It seems to be a two-step process - which is why I recommend going estrogen dominant for two or three months (and raising herbs and BO dosages during the second half of the cycle) and then doing a heavy progesterone cycle.
For example:
Months 1-3
Days 1-13 1800 mgs BO
Days 14-30 2400 mgs BO
Month 4
Days 1-30 1800 mgs BO
Days 14-30 Progesterone
Amounts to be adjusted as necessary and other supplements as required (i.e. SP, epo, salmon oil, protein, etc).
Fawn
|
|
|
|
Post by Moderator on Nov 11, 2003 11:35:20 GMT -5
From: fawnmarie42 Sent: 5/17/2003 5:04 PM
Gigi,
As to saw palmetto - I have run across a couple of sources in the transgender area where doctors DO say that excess testosterone DOES interfere with breast growth in men in transition before the orchiotomy (though I think "cutting their balls off" sounds like more fun).
Some of the BE sources for women say this isn't an issue. However, as well ALL know, not all women have the same testosterone levels, nor do women have the same levels throughout their lives. I don't see how testosterone can interfere with it in men, but not in women.
Now - I know there was some discussion on Bob's board about raising testosterone (using libido as a guide) so that testosterone can be aromatized to estrogen. Well, there is NO guarantee that's going to happen. Things like genetics, lifestyle, diet, mineral balance and even climate are going to affect that aromatization. As in my post to Melo - heat does help. But I think it's much safer to make sure there IS less of an effect with testosterone in case that aromatization does not take place. Saw Palmetto does not destroy testosterone - it is a testosterone receptor antagonist - which means it will fill the receptor without setting off a reaction. Hopefully, that will leave more FREE testosterone to aromatize and fill estrogen receptors.
Heat and saw palmetto!
Fawn
|
|
|
|
Post by Moderator on Nov 11, 2003 11:36:05 GMT -5
From: Mominator5 Sent: 5/17/2003 5:13 PM
Hi Fawn,
Thanks for the reply. So let me get this straight (fenugreek ya' know) I should push the SP and Fenugreek during the 10 days before mensus? Then back off during and after until the next cycle? Please let me know if I understood that.
Thanks,
Mominator
Liked my hint, huh!
|
|
|
|
Post by Moderator on Nov 11, 2003 11:38:17 GMT -5
From: gigi Sent: 5/17/2003 6:18 PM
Thanks fawn,
The effect I described with saw palmetto occurred after the am massage so my next step will be to replace the evening fenugreek massage with saw palmetto and heat. Regarding your reply to Mom it sounds like you're basically mimicking puberty. So, if I were to increase my herbal dosages in the same ratio as the BO dosages during the same time frame I should be able to goose things along. Theoretically speaking of course. There are those variables however, and am I comparing apples and oranges here? For the progesterone component would something like ProGest be useful? I know there were several progesterone sources mentioned in previous posts which I can find just can't remember at the moment. Every time I've started the herbs my periods lengthen and sometimes I have them 2 months apart. I'm sure that if I were to add the progesterone during days 14-30 it would arrive like clockwork. Thanks again
gigi
|
|
|
|
Post by Moderator on Nov 11, 2003 11:38:34 GMT -5
From: Mominator5 Sent: 5/17/2003 6:58 PM
Hi Gigi,
You are on herbal correct? If so, let me know what you are doing and the doses. Just in case I need to change my routine. So far so good, but Aunti Flow has yet to arrive, that will be the true test!
Mominator
|
|
|
|
Post by Moderator on Nov 11, 2003 11:38:49 GMT -5
From: gigi Sent: 5/17/2003 7:26 PM
Hi Mom,
Yes, I'm on herbal BE. I also remember putting my routine on the Stat's page and didn't save it elsewhere. #$%^ Fenugreek. Anyway, I'm changing a few things so this time I'll actually write it down first and then post it. There hasn't been any progress yet so placing it under routines might be premature. Any suggestions as to where to place it?
gigi
|
|
|
|
Post by Moderator on Nov 11, 2003 11:39:17 GMT -5
From: Mominator5 Sent: 5/17/2003 7:50 PM
Hi Gigi,
I know you posted your routine, but if you make changes, could you let me know, especially if you are going to work with the cycling. I would be very interested in that.
Yep, that fenugreek does a number I blame it on everything (as if you couldn't tell), I am not PMSing, I am fenugreeking! Ahhh, what a great excuse.
Mominator
|
|
|
|
Post by Moderator on Nov 11, 2003 11:39:45 GMT -5
From: fawnmarie42 Sent: 5/17/2003 9:53 PM
Mom & Gigi,
Okay - what I am suggesting is that what causes growth is long periods of estrogen dominance followed by "setting" by progesterone. Which means that whatever estrogen source you are using needs to be upped during the second half of your cycle.
Yes, you are in a way mimicing puberty. The two times that women's breasts actually grow and develop is during puberty and during (or after) pregnancy. During puberty, you produce unopposed estrogen (no progesterone) for about 2 years before hitting menarche. Your first period - and most of the ones after that for the first year or two - are cycled according to the rise and fall of estrogen. It is only if and when you ovulate that you produce progesterone. Most girls do not ovulate regularly for the first year or two after menarche - some not for many years (due to imbalance or just slow development). This breast growth takes place during those times of unopposed estrogen during the two years before and two years after menarche. There is some additional growth after - but not much.
Also, most breast growth during pregnancy takes place in the first trimester (before the full development of the placenta which is what produces progesterone during pregnancy (as there is no ovulation) - or right afterward - when the placenta has been removed and ovulation hasn't begun again yet (takes a couple of months, especially if there is nursing). Progesterone drops as soon as the placenta is "ripe" and you are ready for childbirth. This drop in progesterone is one of the things that signals preparation for childbirth. Also, at this time, prolactin levels rise (since progesterone isn't blocking it out anymore) and cortisol levels rise (same thing - it's blocked by progesterone) and these two hormones move "polyamines" into the breast tissue for the production of milk. Polyamines are special molecules derived from amino acids that control cellular growth and death. Prolactin enhances the rate of polyamine transport into the mammary glands. The progesterone during pregancy completed the growth necessary to move the milk to the nipple, but it's the unopposed estrogen, as well as the addition of prolactin, that causes the increase in size after childbirth. Incidentally, prolactin levels rise in girls during puberty as well. Also, prolactin is produced when not pregnant - higher rate of production is during the follicular phase (first half of cycle).
Cortisol and IGF also induce aromatase in the breast tissue. Cortisol is also blocked by progesterone as well.
So, with these things in mind, what we might want to do is "set the stage" for growth by increasing estrogen and prolactin and overriding progesterone (for a while) and mimicing as best we can these two phases where natural growth occurs.
Estrogen can be increased by adding phytoestrogens or bovine ovary. For some reason, the synthetic estrogens do not work very well - BC pill enlargement is VERY, VERY temporary.
Estrogen should be increased during the natural progesterone phase (luteal) - and especially topically and on the site.
Testosterone (though not sure how it interferes - it DOES) can be reduced - well, at least be "blocked" by the use of saw palmetto both internally and topically.
Existing testosterone can be encouraged to aromatize to estrogen by the use of heat and topical estrogen (the more estrogen present, the greater the production of aromatase enzyme).
Prolactin is naturally produced - but is reduced by the production of dopamine. Dopamine levels can be reduced by using either small amounts of alcohol (preferably beer - which contain phytoestrogenic hops) or kava kava.
Several nutritional factors affect hormone production and availability.
Diets lower in animal fats increase a protein called "SHBG" - sex hormone binding globulin - which ties up free estrogen and testosterone to protein and make it unavailable for use at the site of the receptors. It might be useful to increase animal fats and reduce fiber intake during the follicular "growing phase". To avoid gaining fat, starch and sugar intake should be lowered during this time.
Anyway - those are my thoughts on the subject. Unproven as yet - but I will be working on that. : )
Fawn
|
|
|
|
Post by Moderator on Nov 11, 2003 11:40:11 GMT -5
From: Carolinebot Sent: 5/17/2003 10:17 PM
Hi Fawn,
Can I just say again how glad I am to have you on this board! You are just so fantastic at explaining things in a concise and logical way! How are your boobies coming? I still haven't been able to start due to some dire financial straits as of late, but c'est la vie--right?
Keep me posted and happy growing!
~Caroline
|
|
|
|
Post by Moderator on Nov 11, 2003 11:40:31 GMT -5
From: fawnmarie42 Sent: 5/17/2003 10:30 PM
Caroline -
Right now am taking a break and trying to knock off a little weight. Breast density seems to be increasing with just topicals - but not size. No shrinkage from weight loss, yet - so that's good. Have been building up to a serious exercise regimine, which is what I need.
Found out that phyto herbs did NOT work for me - gained weight and was a screaming weeping bitch - and it took a while to wash out (dosed with a little progesterone before there were bodies to dig up).
Have BO on order and am ready to face it again loaded with some new ideas about how to use it. Have come up with a program and will start fresh with it when the BO comes.
Involves BO, high animal protein & fat (lower carbs), saw palmetto & kava or beer) as well as supporting nutrients. Am not ready to go into it yet. Right now am trying to build up my muscle core and my mineral and enzyme reserves and get extra rest. Have been hitting the vitamins heavy and the melatonin.
Fawn
|
|
|
|
Post by Moderator on Nov 11, 2003 11:41:03 GMT -5
From: fawnmarie42 Sent: 5/17/2003 10:37 PM
Caroline - also something interesting I ran into - is that cow's "udders" (which unfortunately are the same as our "breasts) and the surrounding fat pads do grow during pregnancy and nursing - the thing is that they only begin to increase in size after the third, fourth or fifth pregnancy - and then after the 8th or so, they just don't get any bigger.
I myself am unwilling to go through 3 more pregnancies to find out if this will work for me. However, my mother who started out as a B cup, only increased after her 3rd child - and then became HUGE (DD+).
I also wonder, too if as well as mimicing puberty - mimicing pregnancy - might not be usefull as well? Hmmm..... super high estrogen - then super high estrogen PLUS progesterone for several months (and constant, too - not just during the luteal phase) - then cut the progesterone and see what happens?
Hmm....
Well - I'm going to try the 3 months estrog, 1 month progest first. I have used progest on a regular daily basis before with no problem and might do that in cycle 4.
Fawn
|
|
|
|
Post by Moderator on Nov 11, 2003 11:41:23 GMT -5
From: Carolinebot Sent: 5/18/2003 2:01 AM
Fawn,
Sounds like you've got a solid plan and some interesting hypothesies (sp?). I really hope that I will be able to begin my routine soon, but like you said in another post, knowing something is possible doesn't mean you can do it! Oh well! I can't wait to see how your research pans out when it reaches the laboratory so to speak!
Good luck!
~Caroline
|
|
