Greenbush Ramp-Up

[Wahaika]

Greenbush Ramp-Up

(renamed)

Internals
Using the Greenbush 90 Day Kit as the foundation. www.greenbush.net/hargirbrease.html Instructions come with it. It is based on the four staple herbs Fenugreek, Fennel, Wild Yam, and Saw Palmetto. These herbs work in concert with each other.

Additionally, take 1 gram each of EPO and Flax Seed Oil three times per day. A gram of borage oil at bedtime also works.

Take a good multi vitamin with zinc and a B complex. Also add L-Tyrosine.
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Infusion twice per day:
Try 1/2 tablespoon of Fenugreek and 1/2 tablespoon of Fennel, wraped in something like a coffee filter, steeped for 20 minutes.
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Massage:

Booby Batter:
1/2 cup Olive Oil + 1/2 cup Fenugreek + 24 Borage Oil (one gram) caps. Steep for one week minimum before first use. (The longer the better) We now use Borage oil instead of EPO in this mixture. Borage has a higher concentration of GLA - 23-25% vs. about 8% for EPO. EPO is still used internally.
(GLA is a precursor to prostaglandins,
prostaglandins are precursor to aromatase,
aromatase + testosterone = estrogen)

Get 2 (at least) 8oz empty containers such as dark glass bottles or empty hand lotion bottles. Steep with one while using the other.

Shake well all the time. Massage using the example found here at least every other day:
www.bodymechanics.net/subpages/breast.html

On circular rotations, go in circles where the rotation goes down on the inside, up on the outside. I think Lucy has a more clear illustration somewhere on the direction of rotation on those techniques that are circular in motion. The massage before applying heat takes about 15 minutes. 360 rotations per side can also be used.

Cover with Saran wrap. Apply heat for 30 minutes using a heated blanket set on the lowest setting for 20-30 minutes. When possible, leave mixture on all night and wash it off in the morning.
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Record measurements at mid cycle.
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Ramp-Up Method
Start on day one. Go by 500mg steps 3 times per day. i.e. Ramp to 500 mg three times per day in month one. Maintain levels and evaluate growth signs (aches and deep itches). Ramp to 1000 mg three times per day in month 2. Maintain and evaluate growth signs. etc.
The following is in either 500mg or 575mg capsules. If you use Greenbush's 575 mg capsules, watch out for the total daily amount of each herb!

**The herbs should be taken on an empty stomach if possible, so "with meals" is discouraged. 30 minutes after a meal is better. The Borage oil should be taken last thing at night before bedtime. The last dosage for the day is better taken at that time.

1 = one FG per day 30 minutes before breakfast.
2 = two FG per day, one FG before breakfast, one FG before lunch.
3 = three FG per day, one before breakfast, one before lunch, one before dinner or before retiring. (preferably before retiring)
4 = Same as day 3.
5 = 1 SP and 1 FG before breakfast, two FG before lunch, one FG before dinner or before retiring. (preferably before retiring)
etc.
etc.
etc.
For Greenbush capsules, I would say that 5 Fenugreek per day is a good stopping point for estrogenic herbs. Always ramp fenugreek first. I think that all three herbs, FG, SP and WY are important as a combination, and that FN tea or FG/FN tea is a good addition. Massaging the herbs through the skin is an absolute necessity for success. Dry massage is not sufficient. The massage component does not exist for "massage," it exists to get the herbs through the skin.


Here is the method of ramping up showing totals only.

Day...FG...SP...WY
1.......1.....0.....0
2.......2.....0.....0
3.......3.....0.....0
4.......3.....0.....0
5.......3.....1.....0
6.......3.....2.....0
7.......3.....3.....0
8.......3.....3.....0
9.......3.....3.....1
10.....3.....3.....2
11.....3.....3.....3
12.....3.....3.....3
13.....3.....3.....3 Stay at this level for a week or so and evaluate any feelings of growth.
14.....3.....3.....3
15.....3.....3.....3
16.....3.....3.....3
17.....3.....3.....3
18 Skip this day. This is just an example. I'll explain it below.
19.....3.....3.....3 If no signs of growth, resume. If signs of growth, go only slightly further.
20.....4.....3.....3
21.....5.....3.....3
22.....6.....3.....3
etc.

Regarding "day 18." Skipping this day is to facilitate the LH spike and to clear receptors. It is not always day 18 for everyone but it's the best guess because it is really more of a prediction. This day is calculated from the total number of days from the previous cycle minus 14 days. So, if you have a 28 day cycle, 28 - 14 is 14. You would take nothing on day 14 in this case. I always wonder if 14 is a little too early. It could be that subtracting 10 days is better for some. Whatever works for you is best.

Adhere to Mominator's collection of "TIPS & TRICKS!"
beboard.proboards23.com/index.cgi?board=Routines&action=display&thread=1073503467

Getting plenty of sleep is a requirement, but the hours of sleep are also important. Should retire early, like 9 or 10:00PM rather than being a night owl.
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more stuff:
The company we get our Flax Seed Oil from is Barleans. We buy it locally from a health food store here. Their web site is:
www.barleans.com/products/oils.html

Don't get the kind with Lignans.

EPO = Evening Primrose Oil can also be found at Barleans or at Greenbush. The address for Greenbush's is
www.greenbush.net/evprim.html
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Explanation of herbs:

Fenugreek fills estrogen receptors to cause growth.

Fennel does the same.

Saw Palmetto is a DHT inhibitor. That is taken to free testosterone to aromatize into estrogen.

Wild Yam - Who knows, it just works.


Others that are added that seem to work:

EPO: Good internally and for massage. Good for its GLA content (about 8%).

Borage oil: Good for its GLA content (about 25%) Good internally and for massage.

Olive oil: Carrier oil for other herbs used in massage.

Multi vitamins are also good to take, especially if they have a B Complex.

Oregano and Damiana have been used as progesterone blockers. See:
beboard.proboards23.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1067824479

Red Clover: Fills estrogen AND progesterone receptors. I believe that it does not action the receptor therefore not initiating an RNA sequence, therefore blocking progesterone.

Goat's Rue: Same as fenugreek for growth, additional potential as an estrogen receptor resensitizer since it works this way on the hypothalamus. Use in infusion. More later on this one.

Herbal programs must be given no less than 6 months to evaluate.


Wahaika

[Wahaika]

Best viewed with screen resolution of 1024 x 768
Here is my understanding of BE and how we are approaching it.

The endocrine system has several components to it. The following is in relation to BE and steroid hormones. There are some things intentionally overlooked due to time constraints and immediate relevance.

The Endocrine System is driven by positive and negative feedback. Blood hormone levels are monitored. The intricate details are not necessary in order to understand or use this theory.

1. Steroid Hormone Pathways:
(see www.yourmenopausetype.com/steroidpathway/steroidpathway.htm)

The following diagram shows a very condensed rendition of the pathways BE'ers are interested in. To simplify, it seems to be thought of in this way:


It appears that hormone levels behave the way they do because of positive and negative feedback in the endocrine system. The system obviously needs to maintain what estrogen dependent tissue is already there. The system has the ability to regulate estrogen and other hormones. How does the system determine if there is a need for more estrogen?

The assumption is that there is some sort of mechanism where the system detects that there is a need for estrogen to be produced. This could be measured by producing some amount of estrogen, waiting a certain amount of time and then measuring what the levels are. The degree to which serum levels have fallen dictate how much estrogen should be produced, if any. The idea being that if there is less estrogen than expected, then it must have been consumed by additional estrogen receptors, therefore more estrogen must be needed.

By using herbs to fill receptors, BE'ers are bypassing this system to create more cells and therefore more receptors. This creates a need for more real estrogen to maintain the additional tissue. When the hypothalamus/pituitary axis polls the estrogen levels, they should appear lower because more real estrogen has been consumed by the new tissue. More real estrogen is produced to keep up with the demand, the goal being to keep estrogen levels stable, or at some constant.

This is dependent on the system to work as expected. For those with endometriosis, hysterectomy, or on BCPs, all bets are off.

By understanding the purpose of these hormones and how they are manufactured, distributed and regulated, BE'ers can more effectively apply the knowledge to their own unique situations.


2. Positive Feedback.
If the number of cells that need estrogen are great enough, then estrogen production is increased to fill the need.


3. Negative Feedback:
Hormones that are produced are expected to fill targeted cells. In our case, we are interested in cells with estrogen receptor sites. When estrogen receptor sites are filled to some level, the need is filled. If there is some form of excess, negative feedback occurs due to that excess estrogen in the blood which is not being used. Estrogen production is lowered or stopped to maintain what is needed but no more. It works somewhat like this:


Another way that estrogen is manufactured is through adipose fat tissue. That is why BE 'ers use topicals - to fill the receptors locally to stimulate the process that takes place locally.


4. Homeostasis:
When women start BE, their systems begin in a "balance." That is, while their system as a whole may even be out of balance, the number of receptors and the amount of hormones are at a standoff which neither increases nor decreases breast tissue. The purpose of BE is to tip this "balance" in favor of breast growth. It works somewhat like this:

It is important to note that these levels are all subjectively placed. The purpose of the diagrams is to show the mechanics of the process. The actual levels of hormone and resulting growth are unknown and probably unique to each individual.

Someone starting at AAA Cup will have a slower go of it than someone starting at B due to available receptor sites, and the less forgiving closer thresholds. There is not enough wiggle room sometimes, so you have to have it exactly right.

So, as a method, start with low dosages on a few herbs and then evaluate if you have grown, or feel the growing aches, iches or tingles. If you do, then maintain what you are doing. If not, add something else or bump up the dosage of an existing herb.

A good starting point is 500mg per herb. Ramp up on those one at a time also to get your body used to them.

Learn what each herb does do you can make a good decision on what to bump up.

Don't forget the teas and massaging.

Basically (in order of my preference) :
Fenugreek - The most potent estrogenic herb
Fennel - The next most potent estrogenic herb
Saw Palmetto - An "anti androgen" (really a DHT blocker)
Wild Yam - Estrogenic Herb (up in the air)

Red Clover - Estrogenic and Progesterone blocker (I don't recommend this one but others do so I'll list it.)

Oregano - Progesterone blocker
Damiana - Progesterone blocker

I have not yet seen a routine that uses all of these.

5. Blockers:
The use of "blockers" is simply using an herb that fills receptor cells thus keeping the real hormone from filling those cells. This results in negative feedback for that hormone if enough cells are filled. The hormone is 'blocked."

Some examples of herbs used as blockers are Oregano as a Progesterone blocker and Saw Palmetto as an androgen blocker. Although, what probably happens with Saw Palmetto is that it keeps testosterone from converting to Dihydrotestosterone (DHT) by filling DHT receptors, thus keeping more testosterone available to aromatize into estrogen. I am unaware of any studies that find Saw Palmetto fills testosterone receptors or androstenedione receptors. On the other hand, it may not have been studied either. Fenugreek and other phytoestrogens are considered to be Estrogen blockers, if used to that extent. BE'ers try and keep below those levels.

Perhaps the reason progesterone needs to be blocked is because it competes with androgens for pregenalone. By blocking progesterone there is more pregenalone available to go down the adrogen pathway on its way to becoming estrogen, as long as the extra testosterone is used.

6. Stalling
Basically, a stall happens when growth stops and does not start again. Stalling could happen in several ways.

Direct: When all or nearly all receptors of a certain type are continually filled, this seems to result in a stall. This appears to be a function of negative feedback.

Indirect: When a hormone higher in the chain is blocked, the rest of the chain essentially starves from lack of hormone. Production of that hormone cannot continue due to lack of resources.

-Example: Estrogen is blocked by phytoestrogens to the extent that negative feedback occurs and growing stops.

-Example: If testosterone is blocked, then estrogen will be blocked because it is downstream from testosterone.

-Example: If there is not enough pregenalone to create progesterone and enough estrogen (for BE), then progesterone could consume enough pregenalone to starve the DHEA path, as far as BE'ers are concerned.

-Example: Too much testosterone is converted into DHT, therefore keeping it from converting into estrogen.

Perhaps a strategically placed blocker can overcome many of these stalls by allowing more of the parent hormone to follow the path to it.

-Example: Progesterone blockers can allow more pregenelone to be available to go down the DHEA path, thus making it available for testosterone production for conversion into estrogen via aromatase.

-Example: Using a DHT blocker can allow more testosterone to be available to be converted into estrogen.

Lowering below the negative feedback line may not be enough to recover quickly from a stall. It is possible, that in order to recover from a stall that the blood levels of estrogen/phytoestrogen must be lowered below the positive feedback line.

For those in the AAAAAAA category, there are relatively fewer receptors to begin with. Therefore stalling is easier to do. In fact it might even be hard to avoid. For these women, it is not necessarily true that the program "not working." The program may be working just fine. They are simply stalling at lower levels because of a low estrogen receptor count.

Perhaps in this case, starting over after a sufficient break, and ramping up slowly with evaluation points (a week or two for every 500mg step, for example) should be added.


Cycling:

Keeping your body guessing. Missing dosages can be a form of cycling. Adding progesterone on one cycle out of three is a form of cycling because it is said to clear estrogen receptors.

Massaging every other day instead of every day is a form of cycling.

Dowsing is a form of cycling.

In a nutshell: Filling receptors and allowing them to empty in any form of frequency. This probably guards against the negative feedback system downregulating.


Question: How do BE'ers draw hormones in a given direction in the steroid hormone cascade?

Answer: By using a BE routine to create tissue which the endocrine system will create more cells with estrogen receptors and the body should adjust homeostasis through negative feedback and maintain the added tissue.

Wahaika

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References:
beboard.proboards107.com/index.cgi?board=favorites&action=display&thread=1080758386

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[Wahaika]

Hello everyone,

This is an attempt to explain why some women try BE and only gain in the thighs, butt and stomach, or follow a successful program but have little or no results themselves. I think I have found the answer to this as I have looked at a LOT of programs and personal histories both here and on the BEBOARD. So, I'll start with the observation and see if you agree. ......and yes, there are exceptions to the rule that I cannot explain. Jelly (Australia) appears to be among the exceptions.

The observation is that of those who grew the best, they all started their routine in a month that was either in a summer month, or in a spring month. More specifically, after the vernal equinox (spring) but before autumnal equinox (fall). The deviation of these where successful routines still happened still follows the pattern of departing from the winter solstice vs. approaching it. That is, that the program/routine started in a month approaching summer/departing from winter, where less successful routines started in late fall or winter months especially before the winter solstice.

Well, there it is. Now before you say "get a life, Wahaika" I am going to try and explain why I think this phenomenon exists the then support it with examples. At least it might be entertaining if nothing else.

There is a well known cycle among people and animals where we pack on weight in preparation for winter and drop it in preparation for summer. This is not caused by temperature. It is caused by daylight and the pineal gland. The theory is that this relates to BE in that during months approaching winter, the body wants to pack on weight for use as fuel and insulation. Feeding it estrogenic substances (one way to develop fat stores) would result in putting the weight on in those places that are more for storage or insulation as a survival mechanism, rather than on organs. (Keeping fat off of organs is another survival mechanism.) The opposite behavior exists in warmer months where the body would tend to do the opposite.

The pineal gland and its detection of sunlight regulates all of this though serotonin and melatonin. Serotonin increases metabolism which burns fat. Melatonin tends to slow things down and therefore not burn fat. Melatonin is also anti-gonadotropic which is very bad for BE. Another worthwhile discussion is on the adversarial relationship between insulin and HGH at night. But for now, just remember to avoid carbs for two hours before bedtime.

During the darker days of the year, the serotonin/melatonin ratio is tilted toward melatonin. That is, more melatonin is produced per day, and for a longer duration (and less serotonin is produced per day and in a shorter duration) than in the summer where the days are longer.

"Bright natural outdoor light stimulates your pineal gland to make serotonin."

"As the daylight dims, the pineal gland produces less serotonin. And once darkness arrives, it stops releasing serotonin and begins producing melatonin."

"At dawn, the approaching light signals the pineal gland to stop making melatonin (melatonin production ceases at only 200-300 lux – very dim light) and to begin again the production of serotonin. As daylight brightens and you are exposed to the natural light, the pineal gland makes more and more serotonin."

"In addition to the pituitary gland, natural light stimulates the hypothalamus and thereby influences the level of almost every hormone in the body."

"Fat loss may be significantly affected by your exposure to sunlight. Bright sunlight is essential to increased energy and metabolism and fat loss. Optimal exposure to light raises your metabolism and spending the day in low light stimulates fat storage. When the skin is exposed to sunlight, it triggers the production of melanocortin. When melanocortin reaches the brain, it suppresses the appetite centers, which speeds up metabolism and promotes fat loss. Melanocortin also stimulates thyroid hormone production, which increases metabolism." ( "Light and Darkness -Both Are Essential to Your Natural Rhythms", evenstaronline.com/articles/lightdarkness.html )In addition to melanocortin, Vitamin D is also collected from the sunlight through the skin, which becomes calcitrol and then helps metabolize calcium.

"The pineal gland or epiphysis synthesizes and secretes melatonin, a structurally simple hormone that communicates information about environmental lighting to various parts of the body. Ultimately, melatonin has the ability to entrain biological rhythms and has important effects on reproductive function of many animals. The light-transducing ability of the pineal gland has led some to call the pineal the "third eye".

"The precursor to melatonin is serotonin, a neurotransmitter that itself is derived from the amino acid tryptophan. Within the pineal gland, serotonin is acetylated and then methylated to yield melatonin."

"The duration of melatonin secretion each day is directly proportional to the length of the night."

..."the pineal gland is able to measure daylength and adjust secretion of melatonin accordingly."

"The effect of melatonin on reproductive systems can be summarized by saying that it is anti-gonadotropic. In other words, melatonin inhibits the secretion of the gonadotropic hormones luteinizing hormone and follicle stimulating hormone from the anterior pituitary. Much of this inhibitory effect seems due to inhibition of gonadotropin-releasing hormone from the hypothalamus, which is necessary for secretion of the anterior pituitary hormones." ( "The Pineal Gland and Melatonin", www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathphys/endocrine/otherendo/pineal.html )

Can you see why, for example, someone starts in April, breaks in August with 3 inches of growth, then with that momentum is able to grow another two inches in the next few months, is then followed by other women who try the same exact routine but are now starting in a month (like November) approaching the shortest day of the year and then have either fat in all the wrong places, or no success at all, after three or four months of effort?

Well, there we are. I think that explains "the why." Now lets look at some examples and see if it holds up.

Who are the women that have had the most success?

Candy
EnglishChick
Fengshui (if I could track the exact dates)
FennelFairy
Jelly
Pammy
prettysoulful
QueenB
Satu
Shell
Surf
TigerLilly

There are many others.

These are some of the women that I consider to have had the most success, and who had a good record with dates that I was able to use or trace back in some way. Dates are very important when tracking programs/routines.
I am going to use Satu as my first example to show some of this yo-yo effect that happens due to the changing of seasons.

Satu
Jun-05 35
Jul-05 35.8
Aug-05
Sep-05 36.5
Oct-05
Nov-05 37
Dec-05
Jan-06
Feb-06
Mar-06 37.4
Apr-06
May-06 38
Jun-06 38.6
Jul-06
Aug-06
Sep-06 39
Oct-06
Nov-06
Dec-06
Jan-07 39.6
Feb-07
Mar-07
Apr-07 40

This translates to:
June to November 35 to 37 Increasing Sunlight 2 inches
November to March 37 to 37.4 Decreasing Sunlight less than 1/2 inch
March to September 37.4 to 39 Increasing Sunlight 1.6 inches
September to April 39 to 40 Dec then Inc Sunlight Am guessing most of this growth was not during Winter.

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Candy..........July to October...................36 to 38

EnglishChick..January to November………….36 to 40

FennelFairy...January to September…………36A to 36C (one centemeter short of D!)

Jelly.............March to August................34A to 32D
...................November to December…….One half inch

Pammy.........April to July......................32B to 32D-

Prettysoulful..February to August…………….33 to 35

QueenB........August to October……………...36 to 37
...................October to April.................37 to 38

Satu.............Long time span.................35 to 40

Shell............July to January..................36A to 36D

Surf.............March to December…………...32 to 37

Tiger Lilly…...Started in September………….A to B

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I did not show those who did not have success due to starting their routines going into Winter because nobody wants to be the example of what not to do. But you know who you are, and this is only a theory anyway!
To summarize:

* Those who have grown the best have started their routines on a day that is departing the Winter solstice.

* The best time to start a routine is after the Spring equinox (like a day in April if you are above the equator) and significantly before the Fall equinox (like August if you are above the equator) whenever that is for your location. (For those below the equator, what do these translate to ?)

* Once momentum is established (lots of cells to work with) the colder months can still work out for that BEer, but growing can be expected to be slower.

* Those who start between the Fall equinox and winter solstice, especially as a first try, may find it hard to get started.

* Breaks can occur naturally in the winter months.
Things to remember:

- Get plenty of sunlight - like one hour each day. This will help with serotonin, melatonin, and calcium absorption via vitamin D production.

- A possible suppliment that could be used in some way (I have not looked very deeply into this) is 5HTP. It also may be good to add calcium and magnesium to routines in addition to the multi vitamin containing zinc and a good B complex.

Thanks to all who responded to the "Who is from where" thread.

Well, waddya think?


Wahaika

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References:
wwp.thelongestday.com/
evenstaronline.com/articles/lightdarkness.html
www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathphys/endocrine/otherendo/pineal.html
www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathphys/endocrine/otherendo/vitamind.html
fitnessprogramsweightlosstrainer.blogspot.com/2006/10/1016.html
www.bodybuilding.com/fun/drobson55.htm
www.pharmacorama.com/en/Sections/Serotonin_2_1.php
A possible supplement:
www.jigsawhealth.com/products/5_htp_serotonin.html?source=google&campaign=5htp&gclid=CL216tK-pY8CFSBMGgod_natRw
Does the cold weather make it harder to get in shape?
www.thefactsaboutfitness.com/news/cold.htm

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UPDATE

I'm getting more and more convinced that an NBE program could work in the winter months (short day months) as others have had success using:

GABA. GABA gives growth hormone a boost as does serotonin.

L-Tyrosine, Kelp, and B Vitamins. These fuel the thyroid. The thyroid hormone T3 has been used to treat depression. Serotonin has also been used for this. Both are good for metabolism.

Other things that could be done in the winter are to lower SHBG, which fenugreek does. Other things have this effect as well.

Also keep in mind that the body is well into "store fat to keep warm" mode so add plenty of exercise to your programs to help with this. Serotonin is not as active in the winter and it seems to be correlated to growth patterns. But I think that it has been well demonstrated that growth can happen in the winter. The use of GABA and thyroid fuelers above should help the process and seem to compensate. I think that these would work for any program with good quality ingredients whether it be herbs, PM or BO.

Fat deposits on the stomach, thighs, butt, back, etc. will make the process less effective and even derail it altogether. The winter is a great time to try and trim those areas in prep for the spring.

See also: www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=8

I think that serotonin still has a major role in metabolism and may be a factor that the hypothalamus uses to assess where to "set the thermostat." It could be that all of these things could work now, but better in the spring.

Wahaika

[Wahaika]

Trial and Error is really a broad term for trying anything and see if it works, and by some miracle, an accidental success could be stumbled upon.

"Trial and Error" as a method on this board is quite different.

It is closer to the "Scientific Method" than it is to the fumbling of real "Trial and Error." I will probably rename it by the end of this thread.

Origin and Ancient History:
Long ago, it was named that by someone with contempt for it, who was advocating their own new method at the time. The term is somewhat accurate while at the same time, in that there is a fair amount of adjustment because every woman has a different set of characteristics driving their condition. The term is misleading to newcomers as it sounds more scattered than it actually is, so that another method could be falsely advertised as precision.

What is referred to as Trial and Error needs to change.
The actual idea is for the BE practitioners to put themselves in control by learning everything possible and then applying it according to their own judgment. The measuring stick is the body. Among the effects to look for are "Growing Pains." There are other pains as well (like headaches) to watch for. Here are some basic steps:

1. Learn everything you can about NBE and how it has worked for others. Those of us already on the board can answer questions and point you in the right direction for more reading. This is the best thread to learn much of the theory driving BE routines.

Stats and Routines of others that have gone before, is a vast and precious resource. Use it.

An understanding of what herbs, oils, vitamins, minerals, amino acids, etc. are, what they do generally, and how the herbs work in concert with your body (endocrine system, cell/receptor behavior, menstrual cycle, other biological and behavioral observations) is important to generally understand.

Trying to understand how it all works is an ongoing project for everyone. The latest theory, as of this writing, that I am aware of is in the "Timing of Routines!" thread in the General section.
beboard.proboards107.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1194893635
It is also listed above.

2. Believe it or not, everything in #1 can be learned relatively quickly. Once you understand "the rules" in general, you then apply them to yourself in the form of a basic routine which you will tweak as you go along, by observing if it is working or not by what "Growing Pains" and other potential effects that you experience.

Again, the #1 most important thing is that you are in complete control and make all the decisions rather than blindly relying on someone else. I hardly think it is comfortable to continually work blindly off advice of someone else. In some cases it could be very sound, in others, it could appear correct to a novice but in actuality may be way off. Help is always available. But to be in control yourself will put you the most at ease/ the least stressed. A the more you know, the better.

3. Ramping Dosages: The reasons for ramping up dosages are found in Reply #5 in the following thread:
beboard.proboards107.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1199979542

Ramp up your dosages slowly, like 500mg per day (or two) and start on Cycle day 1. This is because estrogen receptors are at the point where the combination of sensitivity and time to use them in a ramp up is optimal. They are the most receptive, starting on day 5.

The way I approach it with someone is to suggest a basic routine that they can add to. I base my recommendation on their stats. What I am evaluating mainly, is their size, age, and if they have already had children.

Someone 18 years old and small (like AAA) with no children, I would suggest something slow to start with that has low maximums (like 1200mg/day) until they understand enough about maximum dosages to decide on their own to alter it or to do something else.

Someone 45 years old, has 10 children, all breastfed, was originally B cup, swelled to DD then went back down to a deflated A, I would use 3000mg as a maximum, and other changes as well, like the usage of GABA.

There is a lot to consider. I'll add more later.

[Wahaika]

One of the things I frequently see missing from routines / programs is a transdermal consideration, or more commonly referred to as massage. Besides being good for overall breast health by encouraging good circulation and encouraging good lymphatic drainage, massaging herbs into the breasts is the most direct method of getting the phytoestrogens into the target cells in the breast.

I first learned of this from Greenbush and thought is sounded logical. Since then, the best growers on this board all did massage, one in particular grew to a size D on massage alone.

The following recipes are what I think are the best based on observation of those who have used them.

1. Homemade from powdered herbs:

Make two batches. One batch to keep on hand steeping while the other batch is used:
1/2 cup Olive Oil + 1/2 cup Fenugreek powder + 24 (1000mg) Borage Oil Caps steeped for one week minimum before first use. (The longer the better) Some vitamin E could be added to this if desired. I would say that 12 (1000mg) for the above amount would be adequate. Again, the vitamin E is optional and it should be observed which one works best for each individual.

Get 2 8oz containers, preferably dark glass bottles. Steep (soak/let sit in a dark cool place like a closet) one while using the other.

Shake well every few days and before each usage.
Apply heat from a heated pad set to low for 5 minutes.
Massage in about a teaspoon or two each side for about 5 or 10 minutes.
Cover with saran wrap.
Apply heat for 15 to 20 more minutes from the heated pad set to low.
Leave the concoction on all night if possible.

Do this every night. Do this each day if possible making a total of two massages per day. Three is even better. If the above is too messy or too much trouble, you can also use Greenbush fenugreek extract and aloe vera gel.

2. St. Herb PM breast cream, Greenbush Fenugreek Extract.

St. Herb breast cream and Greenbush Fenugreek Extract, used the same as described above is a bit more expensive but is very good! I have not seen this used often because of the cost, but every time it was used with these two manufacturers, the results were always good. I don't recommend other fenugreek extracts besides Greenbush, and I don't recommend any other PM cream than St. Herb at this time.

St Herb PM Cream:
www.taraschoice.co.uk/default.cfm/loadindex.269
cgi.ebay.com/St-herb-Natural-Breast-Enlargement-Cream-1-Tube_W0QQitemZ370047803720QQihZ024QQcategoryZ72803QQssPageNameZWD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
cgi.ebay.com/ST-HERB-BREAST-CREAM-Bust-Enhance-Firm-Enlarge-Pueraria_W0QQitemZ200260524004QQihZ010QQcategoryZ72803QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742.m153.l1262

Greenbush Fenugreek Extract:
www.greenbush.net/4ounfenex.html

Mix enough cream to cover the area and add a dropper full or two of fenugreek extract. Mix, preheat your chest, apply the concoction, rub in deeply, add heat - all as described above.

-------------
The rest below will be filled in in the next few days, with examples of each if I can still find them. The two listed here are the best ones to use.


3. DMSO and fenugreek or Red Clover extract...

4. Cocoa butter, Vitamin E, and Fenugreek extract...

Note on DMSO:
DMSO can also be used in place of aloe vera gel, but there are rules for using it. I will edit this message and put them here in the next few days. There is a little more to it than what is contained in the links below.

The most important thing about DMSO is that the skin must be completely clean before beginning including soap residue. Start with ONE DROP. Two drops total would be a good average. Four drops total is a definite maximum and takes time to work up to. Not everyone can handle 4 drops.


See these links:

beboard.proboards107.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=677&page=1

beboard.proboards107.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=800&page=1

[Shaz]

Hi Wahaika,

Your description and diagrams of positive/negative feedback are really interesting. Have you thought of posting this in the general forum so that more people see it?

What are your thoughts on how to tell if you are using enough, but not too much, estrogen?

I'm using BO (Wonderbreast 3x daily with meals plus SP and damiana). I'm sore most of the time and have some fullness. However, if I stalled due to negative feedback, how would I know? Would I still be sore if I stalled?

Obviously if I wait long enough, I should know whether I've grown or not. But I'm wondering if it's possible to tell early, so that doses can be tweaked.

I don't want to be impatient, but the less time this takes the better - what with the expense, the soreness, the fatigue, the pill popping.......!!!

Any thoughts?

[Wahaika]

Hi Shaz!

I haven't thought of posting the routine in the general section. I would imagine that any updates would show up out to the side with my name in bold.

My thoughts on how much estrogen to use is different depending on the number of estrogen receptors available - which may translate to cup size.



As the area between the arrows goes down, the regimine uses lower dosages and has to be more exact because there isn't enough room to deviate.

So, here is how we are attacking this. (Much slower than last time)

Start with the infusions(herbal teas) at 1/2 strength then full strength ASAP. Do the massages from day one.

Ramp up the internals to 500mg on each herb and give it a week or two to allow time for the growth signs to appear. If there are none, then go to 1000mg of each herb and do the same. Keep going in approximately 500mg increments until growth signs appear.

Once growth signs appear, then record that level. If one is in the AAA to AA range then stop there. If AA or greater then adjust up as necessary. Maybe add a progesterone blocker NOT progesterone cream.

Otherwise, one could keep adjusting up to find the negative feedback limit (the stall wall ) and then know what their growth range is. They can then lower the dosage to the upper half of the range.

So goes the theory.

As for BO, I would imagine it is similar. You are already experiencing soreness. Congratulations, you have arrived. Soreness is a growth sign. Once you hit soreness/tingles/itches you need to give it about 3 months.

We are also tracking the growth signs a little differently. The measuring is always the circumference method on day 14. At the end of every day I am going to ask her for a number from 1-10 (10 is highest) representing the intensity of the growth. The thinking here is that we might be able to tweak according to how much itchiness/achiness/tingly she gets. The variables will be cycle day vs dosage amount.

What is your routine? I did not see it in the routines section. Also, there are others (like Fawn and Wenonae) on the board that really know the BO side of the story. I do not. My constant recommendation for everyone, always, is to follow Pammy's program but use the method described above for finding the right level of herbs as internals.

I've heard Mominator describe those who grew on lower amounts of herbs. Lucille's Routine would be one of the latest examples of success on what would be considered lower dosages - 1 gram per day of the staple four and massaging with fenugreek extract. It's not complex and it worked. Very good thinking on her part! ! !

Lucille's Routine:
beboard.proboards23.com/index.cgi?board=Routines&action=display&thread=1075867632
beboard.proboards23.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1075159872

Lucille describing her growth in 8 weeks:
beboard.proboards23.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1075259767

Not that there is anything bad about BO, but I think that it has been overcomplicated over time. You're on the right board in either case.

Good luck!

Wahaika

[Wahaika]

Could use Borage instead of EPO externallythis time around because the GLA levels are significantly higher in Borage than in EPO. Prostaglandins are manufactured using GLA.

Try Galega (Goat's Rue) as an estrogenic herb in the massage and as an infusion 1 tsp to one cup of water.

Ramp up GABA to 2 grams before bedtime to help with growth hormone.

Measuring on day 14 using the circumference method.

Ramp Up (based on 3 X 3) is listed in the messages below the theory message.

---

(notes from a program on Eve's Forum. This is based on Pammy's Routine (as they all really are), which is based on Greenbush's.

tiha/ellet,

>>"
I am 25 yrs.
3 kids
120 lbs,
non smoker
i'm an athlete
currently a 34 b i think . but they look like tea bags from breast feeding.i cannot fit into an A cup. which is weird. even tho i am so small

i want to start off with this:

2000 g fennugreek
1000 g fennel
2000 saw palmetto
2000 wild yam

massage with olive oil probably, i'm in saudi arabia and i would have to call my mom to send me certain herbs that i will order from amazon probably if i cant find them here. I have royal jelly powder and fennugreek seeds... the rest i'm still in a quest of finding...
<<"


Your routine looks good. You can go up to 3000mg of each of those herbs as a maximum. If you were starting in the spring that is what I would suggest. Be sure to use fresh potent herbs.

Use fennel as a tea, not as a powdered herb. Wrap up a teaspoon of it in a coffee filter and boil it in a cup or two (should be a cup when finished) of water for 20 minutes. Drink one or two cups per day. You can make larger batches and keep in the refrigerator.

2000 mg / day (or 3000mg) fennugreek
2000 mg / day (or 3000mg) saw palmetto
2000 mg / day (or 3000mg) wild yam
1000mg evening primrose oil three times per day.
1000mg flax seed oil three times per day.
3 tsp per day of unflavored gelatin. Knox is a good brand.
6000mg MSM - See this thread: www.network54.com/Forum/371678/thread/1249237360/last-1254747575/Growth+with+MSM
Take a good multivitamin that has: a B complex, zinc, A, C, E, D, and at least 125mcg of iodine.
L-Tyrosine, especially this time of year. This is a good one:
www.amazon.com/TwinLab-L-Tyrosine-Vitamin-Capsules-capsules/dp/B001G7R57C

If you were over 30 or 35 I would suggest taking 1500-2000mg of GABA at night. It increases growth hormone. In the fall/winter programs it may be a good addition anyway.

If you only have access to the seeds, you can make your own herbal powder with a wheat grinder or maybe a blender.

The best time to start a program is on the first day of spring. This has the best track record. If you are going into winter, it is the opposite so be patient or wait. Take a one month (one full cycle) break every three months. If you miss dosages don't worry about it. If you get headaches, it is fenugreek lowering your blood sugar. Take some hard candy or soda and the headache should be gone within minutes, then up your carb intake slightly to compensate. Make sure you are getting protein every day - as in chicken, fish, beef, eggs, etc, not soy. (Although soy milk can be a good addition for *some people*, soy protein works for *some people*.) If you have thyroid problems, definitely avoid soy.

Massage/heat
Make a batter out of olive oil, borage oil, fenugreek powder. Massage into breasts somewhat firmly for about 5 minutes then cover with thick plastic wrap (like Saran) and add heat (such as a heated pad set to low, or clothes out of the dryer) for about 30 minutes. Do this twice per day if possible. Leave on at night.
See "Transdermal Considerations" in this thread: beboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=Routines&action=display&thread=3029

As it shows in the first message in that thread, ramp up your dosages gradually. Don't just start all at once. You can ramp up to your desired dosage or you can ramp up until you start feeling changes and then evaluate/tweak from there. Personally, I think you are OK at 3000mg of each of the herbs. But ramp them up one at a time. Also, don't take them all at once. Divide it up and take it three times per day to equal the total per day of herbs. If you were taking 3000mg, then take 1000mg three times per day. An empty stomach is best, but if you get stomach upset, then take them with food. I don't know why, but orange juice works very well.

And again, the best time to start a program is on the first day of spring.

---

Other notes.
Women who have had children are better candidates for BE because they are rebuilding what they once had, and are completely developed.

The more cells there are, the better the chances are and the less precise the changes need to be, are less of a candidate to stall. The larger the beginning cup size, the easier it is to enlarge without other issues.

The thyroid gland goes largely unaccounted for. Estrogen raises TBG (Thyroxin Binding Globulin). This can cause other problems as well. It is unknown if phytoestrogens have an effect on TBG.

SHBG should also be taken into account. <placeholder>
Preexisting fat deposits that redirect the herbs should be discussed. <placeholder>
Dandelion should be discussed. <placeholder>

[Wahaika]

Addition to routine: We found that 4 drops of DMSO with the booby batter gave very good results. Substituting Greenbush fenugreek extract gave slightly better results. We have not tried Red Clover yet.

Massage now comes before rampup in the routine as blood levels from the massage can be taken into account that way. It should better avoid a stall. It may turn out to be a wash.

We will be looking at emu oil and aloe vera as future carriers, but I do have a concern with emu oil and its nature as a triglyceride (blood lipid) along with its ability to get directly into the bloodstream and lymph system. Excess or unused triglycerides are converted to VLDL. At this point I am of the opinon that it is better going through the liver first. But I may change my mind later on that. I am just putting this here so I don't forget about it.

One more note: Flax oils and fish oils have been shown to be aromatase inhibitors. In the case of flax oil, I am pretty sure that this is the lignands which is why we get the one without lignands from Barleans.

---

During breaks, have been massaging with DMSO (max of 4 drops, min of 2 drops) and Greenbush fenugreek extract or booby batter listed in the routine. Do massage as usual, then before applying heat drop 2 to 4 drops of DMSO and massage it all over the area. Then apply heat - no saran wrap! Use a clean (new then washed) diaper.

4 drops of DMSO is a bit much. 2 works just as good.

[duckling]

why not use a progesterone cream?

[duckling]

also, why use flax seed oil and borage oil?

[Wahaika]

>>why not use a progesterone cream?

I started writing about this but it is a very long subject.

But in a nutshell;
1) Progesterone cream used correctly has been shown to stop breast growth in its tracks, but there have been exceptions. I would speculate that if it was applied directly to the breasts you could see growth from it, but do not do anything else. I'll elaborate in days to come. For now, just avoid it.

2) As with the estrogenic herbs, the use of progesterone cream, while possibibly downregulating progesterone receptors, will most likely have an upregulation (jump start) of progesterone receptors first. In the steroid hormone cascade, progesterone comes first. By creating a need for progesterone you stand a good chance of using pregenalone to create progesterone rather than to let it go on its path to estrogen.

Anyone using progesterone cream (in a certain way, especially) should consider supplimenting with DHEA and Borage oil to "feed" the path to extrogen.

Again, I'll elaborate on the weekend.

>>why use flax seed oil and borage oil?

Flax is really just for the purpose of good health because of the Omega-3 content. But one effect of Omega-3's is that it acts as a blood thinner. This would help blood circulation which supports the BE process. That's it. But, a caution on flax seed oil (we used cold pressed) is that it comes with lignands and without lignands. The lignands are aromatase inhibitors. So, if you use flax, use flax with no lignands.

So, while flax seed oil is good for BE, it is more of a support than a specific action like using fenugreek, for example.

The purpose of Borage oil is to get gamma linolenic acid (GLA). Read this thread:
beboard.proboards23.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1107849068&page=1

Wahaika

[Ruderico]

Yes, but what are your wifes results - what are the measurements? I mean, is she wearing new bra's or is she just fuller? If your theories are based on evidence I might give it a try, but right now it doesn't convince me that it really is working for your wife.

[Wahaika]

>>Yes, but what are your wifes results - what are the measurements?

-deleted-


>>If your theories are based on evidence I might give it a try, but right now it doesn't convince me that it really is working for your wife.

The theory is based mainly on my perception of how the negative feedback loop of the endocrine system works with herbs as an outside influence. I think that the routine (originally based on Greenbush's routine and Pammy's routine) is best suited for women who match a certain profile to begin with.

I don't blame you one bit for being skeptical. It is a long process, takes a great deal of patience and is somewhat expensive, as you already know from your 4 months experience on your routine. I have always thought you had a good routine except for the RC usage and enhancement blend usage, but it seemed to work. You went from 34B/C to 32C/D. What happened?

[idontmeasureup]

Just wondering, what is the "profile" that you consider to be ideal for a routine like this or Pammy's? And, do you start to ramp up when you start getting growing signs or do you ramp up when you don't get any signs? How long do you give the dosages before you ramp up? What amount should not be exceeded? Thanks.