Break events

[gigi]

Here's the problem:
I took a break after 4 months of herbal BE eliminating all phytoestrogens internally but still applying them topically for massage. SP has been retained but I'm getting increased hair growth and my skin is going even more haywire than usual. On top of all this I'm continuing to spot even though AF has dissapeared. The only thing I have added is the alfalfa which was after the fact. There were no apparent issues on that front. I'm thinking that the phytos actually helped my skin and that the SP is aggravating it. Any ideas?

My Regimen before the break:
(follicular)
SawPalmetto 575mgx3
Red Clover 575mgx3
Fenugreek 500mgx3
Fennel 500mgx1
(luteal)
all of the above plus 2 caps of enhancement blend
(fenugreek, saw palmetto, wild yam @166mg each)

Massage: 2x/day
Red clover extract, Ylang Ylang and geranium
Essential oils in a sesame oil base. (morning)
All of above plus Saw Palmetto extract + heat (evening)

Hypnosis average of 2 x per week (BLong tape)

Daily vitamins and supplements:
EPO 500mg x1
L’arginine 500mg x2 before bedtime
Magnesium 250mg x2
Zinc 5mg x2
B12 25mcg x1
ALA 100mg x1
MSM 250mg x2
Glucosamine 250mg x2
VitC 500mg x2
Citracal 250mg x1
Alfalfa 500 mgx1

Skin brushing for almost one month. Alfalfa added last week. I exercise daily with the exception of one day during the weekend.

[Wahaika]

Gigi,

We thought that Saw Palmetto would be a good herb to do topically. Personally, I did not think it worked all that well. As I understand Saw Palmetto, it blocks either the conversion of testosterone to DHT or it fills DHT receptors thus crowding out the real DHT, depending on the study one reads.

I have also read that SP is an aromatase inhibitor. If this is true, you don't want to use it topically. Either way, it makes more sense as an internal herb than an external herb, to me. It worked well for that.

I think that your estrogenic herbs are a bit high. Those 575mg capsules really shot my wife's daily total mgs through the ceiling and she stalled. In your case, you could have been stalled (estrogen blocked) in which case the testosterone could not aromatize into estrogen.

Oily skin/acne would be a sign of this. Saw Palmetto might make it slightly worse becase what normally would fill other receptors ends up blocked. But I think the estrogenic herbs are the real problem here.

To fix it, you will need to break for a short time and I have seen others recommend a liver cleanse. Again, get those phytoestrogens out of your system and the estrogen receptors will "pull" the hormones down that chain and the testosterone will convert easier, leaving less to cause these effects.

You might use EPO in your massage. That has the best track record to date.

The other vitamins and amino acids you are taking all look good to me. You could add L-Carnatine tartrate to your regimine and I think it would help. L-Carnatine helps things through the mitochondria of the cell easier. The phytos would get in and the toxins could get out easier.

That's my two cents of total guesswork. Good luck!!

Wahaika

[gigi]

Thanks Wahaika,
I appreciate the response. I thought the total phytoestrogen intake of just under 4g was low compared to what I was previously doing. Go figure! Your reasoning makes sense however so I'll give it a try when I come off break. Interesting take on SP by the way. I had been using it topically for months with applied heat at night but wasn't noticing any change at all. I routinely do a liver cleanse with milk thistle when I start my period. Currently I'm using alfalfa which should be assisting in that as well. Not sure whether its contributing to some bloat though. This break may be extended to two months instead of just one since I'd also like to take off a few pounds. So far it seems as if I'm responding since there are the occasional tingles. Why this is occuring now when I'm off the phytos is anyone's guess but perhaps your theory is applicable. In any event I think I'll give it more time. Regarding your ramping post in routines: what does the legend at the right of the chart refer to (BLD)?

[mominator]

Gigi,
If it makes any sense, I also have tingles when on break. They usually last for about a week. I also get them if I miss a dosage. I tend to think it is the body grabbing and reacting to any EXTRA phyto-estrogen. Which is why taking a break is SO important. Helps the body not be USED to the herbs.

Just an personal obversation.

[Chickydee]

Just thought I'd add that I too would get tingles when I skipped a dose or went on break from the herbs. That's actually when I'd get the most tingles and aches.

[Wahaika]

Hello Gigi!

BLD =
Breakfast
Lunch
Dinner

On tingles during break or missed dosage:
Could this be due to the real estrogen filling receptors due to the absense of phytoestrogens? Does this make a good case for some kind of appropriate cycling??

Here's why: (forgive me if this is all obvious)

It appears that hormone levels behave the way they do because of positive and negative feedback in the endocrine system. The system obviously needs to maintain what estrogen dependent tissue is already there. The system has the ability to regulate estrogen and other hormones. How does the system determine if there is a need for more estrogen? 
 
The assumption is that there is some sort of mechanism where the system detects that there is a need for estrogen to be produced. This could be measured by producing some amount of estrogen, waiting a certain amount of time and then measuring what the levels are. The degree to which serum levels have fallen dictate how much estrogen should be produced, if any.
The idea being that if there is less estrogen than expected, then it must have been consumed by additional estrogen receptors, therefore more estrogen must be needed.  

By using herbs to fill receptors, BE'ers are bypassing this system to create more cells and therefore more receptors. This creates a need for more real estrogen to maintain the additional tissue. When the hypothalamus/pituitary axis polls the estrogen levels, they should appear lower because more real estrogen has been consumed by the new tissue. More real estrogen is produced to keep up with the demand, the goal being to keep estrogen levels stable, or at some constant.

My two cents,

Wahaika

[gigi]

Thanks everyone,
The tingles during break now make sense. Wahaika, that's really a credible scenario-very logical. Sounds similar to what occurs with insulin. When I used to consume too much sugar, the instant rush was nothing compared to the drop a half hour later. I always thought cycling was a viable thing and it appears to work for me. There's still a way to go before I'd consider it a personal success.

[Wahaika]

Hi Gigi,

Yep, it is very similar to insulin and insulin receptors. Kinda like the comparison between stalling and insulin resistance.

I have always been a proponent of cycling to regularly clean out the receptors. But when you think about it, what is happening when someone is not feeling the growth signs and then after they start a break, they feel them? Because, as the levels of phytoestroestrogens in the blood fall to zero, on the way to zero they pass that range where growth happens.

To me, this not only makes a case for cycling, but poses the question: Why not do it in reverse?

Start a break, get the levels way down and then adjust up slowly (start at 500-1000 mg) and stop when you see the indicators? Or maybe note when you see indicators and continue upward until you hit a known stall in order to know your "growth range." Then, go back to the middle of the range.

For those starting out as AAAAAAAAA, where the receptor count is going to be very low, that growth window is very narrow. But once found, it can be built upon, which makes a good case for starting with low amounts of herbs and slowly adjusting up while constantly evaluating.

The best evaluation timeframe for growth is about 3 months. But how long does it take to see growth signs? One week? Two weeks?

I guess the point in all of this is that the growth spurt after the beginning of a break begs the question: How can this experience be used to the advantage of the BE'er?

I guess the point is that canned routines from manufacturers are aimed at what seems to work the most for the most women. I have read over and over where some women in the AAA range are not having success. I think that it is because they are stalled out when using a canned routine such as Greenbush. Their herbs are the best. But their instructions may not be appropriate for those starting at ground zero with AAAA measurements.

Right now the focus is on seeing if your body has an allergic reaction to the herbs. Maybe the consideration of giving certain levels time to react before moving on is appropriate.

Perhaps evaluation points during the ramp up need to be added for the purpose of evaluating the dosage, rather than the focus being solely on getting to the dosage.

Just thinking out loud. I think that if you lowered your dosages a bit (Greenbush's capsules are 575mg and it adds up fast - I think your are stalled) then you might free up some receptors so that those andogens have room to aromatize into estrogen. Right now they have no place to go. Their path to extrogen is blocked.

I also think that if you remove Saw Palmetto from the massage and replace Red Clover with Fenugreek extract, in the massage, you would see improvements.

Good luck! (Sorry to ramble on like that)

Wahaika

[gigi]

Wahaika,
The reversal theory intrigues me. I've already removed SP from massage. Interestingly enough I replaced the fenugreek with RC in the first place because the fenugreek didn't do anything but smell bad. When I switched to the RC I did experience tingles for a short while. That leads me to believe that switching phytos, at least for massage, may be beneficial. Perhaps the body becomes used to one substance and the change can jolt it into action. Maybe I could alternate both phytos to my benefit? I'll be coming off break in a little more than a week. At that time I'll start with 500mg of fenugreek/day until I notice activity. I'm reluctant to go with the enhancement blend since I'm not sure that the WY really does anything. Of course I'll maintain the SP dosage. This experiment sounds like it will work for me. In any event I'll let you know of the outcome.

[Wahaika]

Gigi,

OK, I'll be watching!

If you try any suppliments besides a good multi, don't forget to try L-Carnatine Tartrate.

Good Luck!

[Venus]

Hi Wahaika,

What exactly does L-Carnatine Tartrate do for BE? How much do you recommend taking and when? during the day, before bedtime? Is it to be taken instead of L-arginine/L-ornithine or glutamine, or in addition? I've been trying L-ornithine and glutamine before bedtime (I tried arginine/ornithine combo, with Lysine, but got a cold sore anyway so I dropped arginine and added glutamine).

Sorry for all the questions at once. I'm just running out of glutamine and was curious about your recommendation of L-Carnatine Tartrate.

Venus

[Wahaika]

Hi Venus,

"L-CARNITINE is an amino acid found in high concentrations in human heart and liver tissue, where it participates in metabolizing fatty acids into energy by the mitochondria..."

I am making a leap of logic here, that what L-Carnatine does is make things pass easier through the mitochondria whether they are fatty acids or hormones. It also helps the cell get toxins out - so it works in both directions.

Think of it as a method of removing some of the natural resistance in one of the functions of cells.

Those who are athletes or body builders are interested in this because it translates to more energy. BE'ers might be interested in this to help the process of getting phytoestrogens through the mitochondrial wall and into the estrogen receptor.

I have seen no research that says hormones penetrate the mitochondria the same as amino acids do.

The idea that this works with estrogen the same as it works with amino acids is a theory on my part.

Just wanted to be clear.

L-Carnatine is not necessary or even a main consideration. It is one way to make the process more efficient. That's it.

500mg with meals should be fine. Twin Lab is a good brand.

It is expeeeeeeensive!

If you want to get rid of cold sores, get plenty of fiber in your diet and never use Lysine except when you get one or are about to get one. Try 1 gram at night before bedtime, and 500mg first thing in the morning. Swish (did I spell that right?) out your mouth with Lysterine (the medicine cabinet smell, not the mint ones) at the same time. Should be gone within a week - stubborn ones take longer. Stay away from acids.

L-arginine can raise your testosterone. Be careful!

L-ornithine is an HGH precursor. You might drop that for now.

L-glutamine is a good one. Keep it.

Actually, if you want to take amino acids, there should be and inexpensive complex available. I have seen plenty of successes without supplimenting them. It might be an unnecessary expense.

My two cents, and probably not worth that much!

Wahaika

[Venus]

Thank you Wahaika for taking the time to explain that in detail, yet simply - so even I can undertsand, LOL!

I appreciate your advice on the cold sores too. I used to get them very frequently, but strangely since starting BE I haven't had one in a long time, except when I tried the L-arginine, so I dropped that right away. I don't take Lysine everyday, I only added it when I added the arginine and ornithine to prevent a cold sore - but got one anyway.

I'll continue with the glutamine and next time I go shopping I'll get L-Carnatine to see if it helps any. And, I'll drop the L-ornithine - although I thought a HGH precursor was good for BE.

Thanks again for your response. It's worth more than "2 cents"

Venus

[fawnmarie]

L-Ornithine is excellent for a BE program.

IGF levels have shown to be associated with breast growth and size.

L-Ornithine stimulates HGH production - which in turn increases the production of IGF.

Fawn

[Venus]

Fawn, thanks for your input.

Do you think the L-ornithine is effective without taking the L-arginine? As I explained previously I got a cold sore right after taking it, even with adding lysine. Do you think I should continue with the L-ornithine and L-glutamine before bedtime? I've been taking 500mg of each.

Venus