Wild Yam/Progesterone

[lild]

OK. I am VERY confused about progesterone! In some posts I read that it's good to use progesterone cream, but I thought it was bad for BE? And I read in other places that WY is a progesterone, and in other places that it isn't, but it's a precurser to it. What exactly is it? And what does it do?

[Wenonae]

Read this awesome explanation from Fawn written on Aimoo

"Okay - here's the history of my prolactin theory....by asking the following questions:
1. When does breast growth occur naturally? Puberty and during or post-pregnancy when nursing.
2. What hormones are elevated during these times and which ones are suppressed (or missing)?
Puberty: elevated estrogen & prolactin, missing - progesterone (during puberty girls rarely ovulate)
Post-pregnancy Nursing: elevated prolactin, missing progesterone.
Prolactin: Although it cycles slightly during the menstrual cycle, the only times it is elevated is during puberty and post pregnancy and through nursing.
Progesterone: Only produced in high levels during ovulation and by the placenta during pregnancy. During puberty, ovulation is very irregular, and sometime non-existant during the first year or two after menarche. During pregancy, ovulation is usually suppressed to some degree by nursing, and occurs infrequently or not at all during the nursing period.
The affects of prolaction on breast development are rather indirect. During puberty, it works with estrogen for the development of glandular tissue. Prolactin itself increases the amount of estrogen receptors in the mammary tissues (stroma, glands and fatty tissue), making them more receptive to estrogen.
It also decreases the amount of a enzyme called lipoprotein lipase (LPL) in all adipose tissue in the body - but NOT in the mammary glands. In this way, it works as a "targeting system". LPL is the enzyme that allows fat cells to remove tryglicerides from the blood stream and store them. LPL is the "fat storage" enzyme produced by the fat cell that helps them store fat. Prolactin decreases the amount of LPL produced by the fat cell - but it increases the amount produced in the mammary glands. The end result of this is that when increased estrogen levels (during a BE program) cause increased insulin response and subsequent fat storage, the reduced amount of LPL in adipose tissue will disable the storage of fat in the lower body, while increasing the uptake of nutrients in the mammary glands for growth. **
** Identification of functional prolactin (PRL) receptor gene expression: PRL inhibits lipoprotein lipase activity in human white adipose tissue., Ling C, Svensson L, Oden B, Weijdegard B, Eden B, Eden S, Billig H., Department of Physiology, Sahlgrenska University Hospital, Goteborg University, 405 30 Goteborg, Sweden.

**A review of the hormone prolactin during lactation., Ostrom KM., Department of Nutritional Sciences, University of Connecticut, Storrs.
As for progesterone, it has been shown that the glandular tissue grows the most during the luteal phase, when estrogen and progesterone are at a peak. This is glandular tissue, though, and not an increase in size, fatty or connective tissue. Progesterone blocks prolactin and cortosteroids, which are both responsible for anabolism (growth) of the fatty tissue.
The production of prolactin IS temporary - which means that after the first couple of days after birth, prolactin is ONLY produced in response to stimulation (nursing - or in our case, massage). For those of you who have nursed, you know what I mean. Part of weaning is reducing the frequency of nursing, putting more time between each nursing session. The production of prolactin is directly a result of stimulation - and stops after a while. Which is why I have always said that the frequency of the massage is more important than the length of the massage. A minute of massage every hour is more productive in terms of prolactin production than 24 minutes of massage once per day.
Combined with the affect of massage on circulation, an increase of prolactin, because of it's subtle affect on body fat distribution through the regulation of LPL, should aid a BE program.
So, that is my theory behind prolactin and how I achieved it:
1. Prolactin is only elevated during puberty and pregnancy/nursing - the two periods of natural breast growth.
2. Research into the affects of prolactin on fat storage and distribution.




Fawn
[ftp]http://www.botanicalbeautylab.com[/ftp]

[mominator]

Hi Lild,
The jury is still out on W/Y, it has shown to produce progesterone like properties in a lab setting...however, has not shown to convert in the human body.

Here's the twist! Some people seem to respond to W/Y in a positive way with W/Y, I personally had messed with my W/Y dosages, and starting spotting. When I started to reduce my dosages including W/Y it brought on my period! I believe the same thing happened with Mansi, when she reduced her w/y. So...cha-ching...2 cents!

[SomeGirl]

However, estrogen can turn to testosterone if you don't have good levels of progesterone. All woman have testosterone, and low progesterone means less estrogen and higher testosterone. I would say a good level of both estrogen and progesterone are important in developing breasts.

[mansi]

Hi Lild,
Momi is right. I relly don't know the significane of wild yam for BE, but I just could not do without it. I got extended periods with spotting even after the periods were over.
I also had abdominal pains (the kind of pain that I get during my periods). I felt all the time that I am having my periods except the flow. It was bad for me without wild yam. But the moment I started taking it, everything was fine. So check it out.

Mansi

[Wenonae]

SomeGirl said:

However, estrogen can turn to testosterone if you don't have good levels of progesterone. All woman have testosterone, and low progesterone means less estrogen and higher testosterone. I would say a good level of both estrogen and progesterone are important in developing breasts.

SomeGirl, I would beg to differ on that thought. I think the way it goes is that testosterone can go to estrogen at the correct temps..not the other way around.

The most proof that's had the HIGH prog. and HIGH estrogen is NOT a proven track record is based on the results of the growers here.

Anyone step in on this one...if u KNOW u have high levels of those two things and are growing boobies..BEB would LOVE to know.

[mominator]

Well from a few survey's official and just threads, have shown low progesterone/estrogen dominance has proven to be our best growers.

Plus Fawn's Survey, and findings regarding progesterone level's during puberty and lactating.

Does that help? These are searchable, most of that information came from the MSN site, and has been transferred over.

Also, the charts showing the chain of hormones are available here in "BE Lingo"

[Suze]

I can't speak from direct experience on wild yam, only provide bookish knowledge. I still hope it will help.

Estradiol can't be converted to testosterone in your body. Actually, it can only change to estrone (another estrogen) and this is reversible.
On the other hand, testosterone is converted to estradiol by cytochrome P450 aromatase in several organs.
Progesterone and its direct precursor pregnenolone are more of a "raw" hormone, a starting point for nearly all steroid synthesis in vivo. So depending on the relative potency of the different enzymatic pathways, when you increase free progesterone levels, you can also increase androgens, estrogens and corticosteroids through conversion. You will also decrease some of those after a while as there are negative feedback loops managed by the pituitary (the loops make our cycles work).
If you are looking for herbs to increase cytochrome activity, licorice is your best, although a bit risky, bet.
About wild yam, it contains diosgenin, which is a decent starting point for industrial synthesis of progesterone, but our bodies can't do it. It also probably contains other chemicals (possibly glucosides) with direct effects in the human body. So if you plan on using wild yam, choose pills made of the whole tuber instead of concentrated diosgenin extract. Or you can buy it raw and prepare it the way you feel the best, just make sure it's wild yam and not ordinary sweet potatoes. I know I won't, to save money, as except in mixed pills, it's more expensive than even ginseng around here.

[fawnmarie]

Suze,

A recent medical study I posted here showed that although most of the phytoestrogen were estrogen agonists (when applied to receptors), the phyto-progesterones worked either as receptor antagonist or neutral blockers.

You might want to take a look at it.

From this also, I drew the conclusion that wild yam and other phytoprogesterones worked for BE as progesterone receptor blockers - reducing the effect of progesterone on the process.

Although progesterone is needed for glandular repair in growth - it is not always the glandular growth we are trying to stimulate, because it has little to do with size (just with firmness). What I am assuming is that what we want to concentrate on is increasing the ammount of stroma and fat storage. Progesterone intereferes with glutocorticoids that cause fat storage, reduces the effects of prolactin (prolactin increases the amount of estrogen receptors in the breast tissue).

So - although many of these phyto-progesterterones fit progesterone receptors in the body, unlike phytoestrogens, they do not cause the same effect as real progesterone, simply block the uptake of it in the tissues. (Perhaps even leaving more to convert to estrogen.)

[Suze]

fawnmarie said:

Suze,

A recent medical study I posted here showed that although most of the phytoestrogen were estrogen agonists (when applied to receptors), the phyto-progesterones worked either as receptor antagonist or neutral blockers.

You might want to take a look at it.

Is it the one by Zava, Dollbaum and Blem? I had a look at it on PubMed a while back, but it doesn't mention wild yam among the most PR-binding herbs, so I'm not sure it's the right one.

{Edit: www.cancersupportivecare.com/estrogenherb.html link to full study}

Oh, and looking back there, I found this one, which supports your last point:

[Diosgenin--a growth stimulator of mammary gland of ovariectomized mouse.

Aradhana, Rao AR, Kale RK.

Cancer Biology Laboratory, School of Life Sciences, Jawaharlal Nehru University, New Delhi, India.

Estrogenic action of diosgenin on the mammary epithelium of ovariectomized (OVX) mouse has been reported. Diosgenin when administered (sc) at the dose levels of 20 and 40 mg/kg body weight for a period of 15 days stimulated the growth of mammary epithelium. This was indicated by the increase in DNA content, increase in number of ducts and appearance of terminal endbuds. There was a significant increase in the mammary development scores in the presence of diosgenin. Concomitant treatment of estrogen and diosgenin showed augmentation of estrogenic effect of diosgenin especially at the higher dose level (40 mg/kg body wt). Diosgenin showed a lack of progesterogenic action as was apparent from the absence of alveolar development even in the presence of exogenous estrogen.]

[fawnmarie]

Yes, that's the study. No, it doesn't mention wild yam in particular.

My feeling about wild yam are definitely still on the fence. Some have found it to help with PMS, bloating, mood swings, etc. - things normally that would be effected by the use of real progesterone USP. So, it may be that as an antagonist, it doesn't really produce the same affects of progesterone, but does block receptors that could be picking up the excess estrogen that is generally known to be rather high during mid-luteal phase.

I'm still not sure about wild yam, myself.

And thanks for posting that supporting study.

Personally, I think strong cycling of the hormones and/or phytochemicals is the best route.

[marshall97]

Wild yam might also be beneficial to some women who are seeking BE because the diosgenin in wild yam is converted into pregnenolone in the body.
I don't think the positive effect of wild yam is because of any prgesterone effect because we already know that the compounds in wild yam can't be converted into progesterone in the body, only in the lab.
M97

[fawnmarie]

The body makes pregnenolone in the mitochondria from cholesterol - so almost anything could be converted to pregenolone.