Well, it's been about a month. I guess it's time for the next installment of the saga. I hope that at least it will show that it takes a pound of truth to refute an ounce of falsehood.
I know it looks like it is all about me, but it's not. The subject of the thread is that
dowsing is not meditation. But answering
[url=http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=define%3A+ad+hominem&spell=1
] ad hominem [/url] [/b]attacks is sometimes necessary for the benefit of those reading this thread in the future and for those that I would let down if I allowed these
inaccuracies to go completely unquestioned.
I have been kicking this around for a while and decided that the following might be a good idea to try and capture in opposition to the following paragraph that begins:
"The kicker about all of Wah’-Wah’s postings in general, he really has a problem being “wrong”..."
That entire paragraph would take months to write a response to since it is so inaccurate. But I am going to take a shot at it. ---------
>"The kicker about all of Wah’-Wah’s postings in general, he really has a problem being “wrong”- so newbies- you’ll get a dishing if you question his logic too much! "I hope that the truth of this is obvious. I like to be questioned. But
[url=http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=define%3A+ad+hominem&spell=1
] ad hominem [/url][/b] attacks are not questions.... are they.
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>"Additionally, he will give very little credit to anyone as it relates to dowsing because he’s very worried about being shored up (he can’t even SPEAK about my BE success)."OK folks, you need to do your homework here.
The record can speak for itself,
and it will. But to say that I have a track record is
very deceptive. All women are different in their makeup. I do not take credit for women having successes for doing what works, or not. Most women do not do what I suggest for any significant length of time. Some women can do what works forever and it will never work. Those are the facts. I do not have a "track record." If you want to see a "track record" see the testimonial page
s at Greenbush.
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>"Another kicker is- the guy did NOT even develop the ramping up concept for example- it was other members (Fawn, myself, etc.) who did and worked on this (although he wrote up a nice complicated layout in his wife’s thread which takes a lot to decipher). He did not do or discover many of the things he writes about like “he used to science to figure out.” "FALSE. I developed the theory that ramping dosages until "growing pains" appeared could be used to determine the best possible dosage and combination. Not only that, but there was a long time on this board that Wenonae referred to this (contemptously and inaccurately) as "Trial and Error" , and that dowsing was supposedly some sort of precision instrument.
Show me one woman who has kept her growth long term using it. I can point to
many women using the ramping concept and trial and error who have. But don't believe me. Go out and do some research yourselves. Compare those who did a trial and error type program such as greenbush against those who did Elegance Elixir, Real Health Method, and other dowsing methods including having a dowswer to their thinking for them. Judge the results for yourselves.
If Wenonae and Fawn discussed this as she claims, then she needs to point it out because I am unaware of any such discussion. Show me the post(s) if they exist. Does this mean that anyone could not have reached the same conclusion that I did? Absolutely not. Is it possible that they could have discussed it? Sure. We all have brains. We all have access to the same information. But to say that I did not develop the ramping concept in the context of using growing pains as an indication of correct dosage is simply untrue. I would wonder why, if she developed it as she says, and in light of its widespread use and obvious success, she fought against it for so long in favor of something in the same category as palm reading, crystal balls and ouija boards.
>"Anyways, that same group also came up with trying to use hormonal profiles to figure out where to start for the types of things to use (Fawn even tried to do a clinical study). That same collective group did a lot of OTHER work to figure out BE endeavor so others wouldn’t have to go through the drama. In the end, there’s only some basics developed from that time period that hold consistently true- when you try something out, add only one item at a time (one cycle) so you’ll know how your body reacts."That same collective group? I was in that group of collective researchers! Fawn's "clinical study" (survey) was
after my study which was also a survey. I went to a certain point but decided at that time that I did not want to ask a bunch of cycle related questions because that would embarrass some of the board members (including me) at that time, which was early in the history of the BEBOARD - MSN days.
My main effort (since I can only be an outsider) has been to catalog what has worked for women (hence my
constant referencing to "track records")
and to try to understand why some things worked for some women but not others, what made some things to work for the women they worked for, and then to abstract it out to a level that might explain how it might work for
all women by trying to figure out how it worked on several levels. (Hence my insistence on obtaining stats and emphasizing ramping up dosages.) That, and to help others understand the process is the reason I am on this board.
I think that the message Wenonae is trying to convey is that I contributed nothing. So, to answer that , I would ask: On this board, whose idea was it
/or who discovered it
/what is the history
/who brought it in from somewhere else
to BE as it exists on this board?
* to have program pages and stats pages?The first program page that I am aware of was on Bob's board, and the first one to suggest it was Wahaika. Yep, before Pammy's boards, including this one (Pammy had two previous boards), there was a guy named Bob who had a board mostly devoted to BO. There were three other boards that I know of (neither Pammy nor Bob). Two were on yahoo and one was mountain of rose herbs. The two on yahoo did not have program pages. I don't know about mountain of rose herbs. I suggested to Bob to have a program page and he put it up. The first woman to post her routine was Patty420. Most of the women who posted their routines at first, did it by request - from me. As for stats pages - that was either Mominator or Pammy.
BTW, In the context of asking women to keep a record of their routines, of what relevance is it who came up with the idea first? Who cares?
* to ramp herbs to predetermined levels?Greenbush.
* to ramp herbs to determine allergies?Pammy.
* to ramp herbs to determine dosages?Wahaika. The history is that I read where some of the women who had successes were complaining how much it hurt when it was working. (
beboard.proboards107.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=137&page=1 ) I thought that it seemed logical that ramping dosages until these pains were felt might be a good way to determine the correct dosage and combination of herbs for each individual woman. But "titration" was suggested by Bob back when he was working with women using BO, even though different than what I suggested. Bob was much more into making women hormonally balanced where I agree with Fawn that hormonal balancing is not going to lead to success.
* to use a multivitamin, b complex, zinc?Wahaika, for tissue construction and metabolism support. Do I need to list how vitamins do this?
* that Saw Palmetto was not anti-androgen, but anti DHT.Wahaika - the history is that Saw Palmetto was routinely referred to as an anti-androgen. The research is out there that it is anti DHT. This means that it would free more testosterone to convert to estrogen. If some women experience acne while using SP, this could be why. And why didn't anyone else notice this? I don't know.
* that dopamine was anti prolactin?Wahaika - the history is that Fawn was promoting occasional alcohol (like beer) to raise prolactin levels by raising dopamine. But the research says that dopamine inhibits prolactin at the hypothalamus level. Again, the research is out there. Why didn't anyone else see it? I don't know.
* That Chastetree berry (Vitex) is anti prolactin? (see the previous point. Vitex raises dopamine.)
* why women of different sizes (many characteristics here) have different levels of success?Wahaika - women who have fewer receptors have a harder time than women who have more receptors. Further, the dosages are more difficult to keep stable in women with fewer receptors (smaller cup sizes.) Cup size is not the only consideration. Band size is also a consideration, as is height, weight, and age. You can't treat all women the same. A 38 B is much more mass than a 32 C even though 32Cs may look bigger. Each has characteristics related to size that translate to speed of growh - or not!
IMO, Women with the best profile are 32-34B who were at least a D cup while nursing their children. Those who have had no children are facing an uphill battle, but it can be done under the right circumstances. Those in the AAA to A range who have never had children are definitely facing an uphill battle. Those with large fat deposits (like in the stomach) are facing an uphill battle as it acts like a magnet. The stomach has to go first!
* the GLA to aromatase connection as an explanation of why to use EPO and Borage Oil?Wahaika -
beboard.proboards107.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1051Arachidonic Acid is a major consideration.
Prostaglandins are a major consideration.
* why Equinox to Solstice may explain why some women grow and some don't?Wahaika -
beboard.proboards107.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=2102&page=1* that progesterone related growth is temporary?Wahaika - Look at pregnancy. Progesterone is 10 times normal. Now look at post lactation. What happens? pssssssssssfbltfbltfblt! Just like a deflated baloon. Progesterone is for other things. Now, in puberty - whole different story, but those ages are out of scope on this board.
* that prolactin related growth is temporary?See progesterone.
* that those who ever previously lactated may have a harder time and why?See above.
* that fat deposits in other parts of the body may be magnets for phytoestrogens?See above.
* why those who are overly thin with no body fat may have a hard time?See above.
* that those over exercising or dieting to lose weight might have a hard time?I think we all instinctively knew this one, but I think Wenonae originally said it best somewhere a long time ago when she termed it as rapid weight loss. Best said, but not originated.
* that GH / IGF-1 considerations are helpful if they can be harnessed?Fawn.
* That Gelatin is useful in BE (believed for tissue construction).Fengshui and Tigerlily on Eve's Forum . (
www.network54.com/Forum/371678/thread/1155867212/last-1156459665/how+gelatine+works+with+NBE- ) Surf and Jellyboobs also demonstrated that this works. I am pretty sure I got the dosaging (3 tsp 3 times per day) from Jellyboobs. I don't think Surf took that much. I think gelatin should be a staple in every routine/program.
* that those who do not stick with any one thing long enough for it to work will never have success?Greenbush.
* kitchen sink products, as Greenbush now calls them, do not have enough of any one thing to make a difference?Greenbush
* why the menstrual cycle is so important and to start on day 1?Mominator (as I remember.)
* That Black Cohosh is dangerous and should be avoided because it affects Luetinizing hormone?
* Why Goat's Rue may work even though others were saying it was dangerous?
* That pumpkin seed oil is anti DHT while no one else seemed to know what it was for?
* That Stinging Nettle Root is anti DHT?Yep. Wahaika. I researched all of those. Except for Black Cohosh, they were ingredients that HBA used at the time and I wanted to know why. Could others have known this and just not brought it up? Again, an obvious yes. But did they? No. One example is Goat's rue (Galega. I was in disagreement with Fawn that is was safe to take for those who were prelactation/prepregnancy. I maintained that it was safe. Turns out that I was right. The key is to get it from places that know how to harvest it. The roots contain an alkaloid toxin. The root is not what is used in suppliments, but animals eating the whole plant don't know that, do they.
What has Wenonae introduced? That works? Not dowsing. That was Charky. . . . . Anything?
I do remember that she introduced the usage of damiana and oregano which she has recently rescinded. She has introduced the concept that borage was good for PMS then rescinded it, but I maintained it because the research showed that it was good. She has contributed in some other areas, like the use of Vitamin C (also found in multivitamins by the way) but directly affecting BE - I can only think of one think (finally) - that Yasmin and Diane 35 are the most useful BC for BE. I am sure that she made that observation. Other than that, I can't think of anything else.
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>"Since I dowse, I can also provide people help when they use the hormonal profiles thing..and now some of that even is starting to make sense, develop a nice pattern. It’s painful to see how with this guy’s “help”, most people are looking at least a 2-5 yr effort especially if you are told to start out “Pammy’s” routine, or Wah’-Wah’s wife’s routine (this is a hellishly long time to keep up BE- been there done that)."Yep, dowsing has long been touted as a precision instrument. But the track record (Elegance Elixir and RHM) eventually proved otherwise, which is beside the point. I have consistently opposed the source of the inspiration of dowsing/divination which is the same source that moves an ouija board, contrary to Wenonae's claims. Anyone going down the path of dowsing/divining is playing with the same fire.
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>"Wah’-Wah’ would also like you to believe that there’s no God in Science- that Man can just do it all ‘on their own’. If that’s the real deal- there’d already be a cure for cancer and many other things. Also no need for miracles or angels. No need to DIE because we’d have figured out “Everlasting Life” elixir. Additionally no need for prayer for help in stressful or life-threatening situations to gather strength of the God within everyone, etc. According to this guy Wah’-Wah’- Science and “good ole common sense” can figure this/ BE all out. Bull$hit. GOD IS EVERYTHING and IS IN EVERYTHING. Wah’-Wah’, me, nor anyone else can out-figure God. So therefore, I’m going to listen to God and all the angels God sends to help me with others’ BE endeavors (so long as I’m at it)."The statements about what I believe are way off. BTW, how does Wenonae know what I believe? We have
never discussed it.
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>"I’m not even going purport to I “know it all”, but neither am I’m going to sit here and have some little guy tell me try to tell me that I’m part of an evil occult and simultaneously tell me that I don’t have a clue what I’m talking about and that he does when all he does is copy my and others’ info!!"Ok Wenonae, name one single example where I copied something you said/originated/whatever, or anyone else for that matter. Please provide sources. 9/5/08 - still waiting......
10/12/08 - still waiting......
11/12/08 - still waiting......
12/10/08 - still waiting...
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Summary and relevance of it all:
Wen, I am so ashamed of you for lying and name calling. In an earlier day you would have been expelled from this board by Pammy for your behavior - just as melo was for doing much less! So many women will believe what you have said and that is a responsibility and a trust that you should not use to destroy someone. Your behavior in this has been shameful.
Dowsing is not meditation. Dowsing is not prayer. Wenonae should try to stay on subject instead of engaging in personal
[url=http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=define%3A+ad+hominem&spell=1
] ad hominem [/url] [/b]attacks and name calling as a means of
decoying attention away from the subject.
BTW, at least I can truthfully make the claim that I never tried to use women and this board to make money off of, ever. I have never received a so much as a penny. Not everyone in this thread can make that claim, can they Wenonae? How are those book sales and EE sales coming along? Are you still funneling unsuspecting women to your sales sites? How can you sell Elegance Elixir to unsuspecting women after the results of your "study" have proven that it is a failure? I truly hope that this practice has stopped.
