|
Post by Moderator on Nov 9, 2003 12:22:54 GMT -5
From: Mominator5 Sent: 6/29/2003 2:12 PM
Hi Fawn, Basically what you are saying is that I am an exception to the rule. Because I do smoke and I do drink a lot of caffiene. Is it possible that I also produce more prolactin than the average, which has caused my success? Let's not even mention my possible PCOS, so everything included, I should not be a success, but I have grown quite a lot with lifting. Your finding are reflecting something that I have posted many times. I grow during my mensus. About day 3-5 of cycle. From what I am reading as an "older" BE user, your theory and the C&D Theory (posted earlier) matches., for the over 35. So since I do not like beer, and really shouldn't drink due to my occupation, I really should consider using Kava Kava and/or Hops in the event that I stall out. Great research, I would personally like to thank you for taking all this time and energy to help others with their BE struggles. I cannot imagine how time consuming this has been and will continue to be! THANK YOU! Happy Growin' to All and Keep those massages goin' STRONG! Momi'
|
|
|
Post by Moderator on Nov 9, 2003 12:23:23 GMT -5
From: basil Sent: 6/29/2003 2:10 PM
Momi Taking hops might be a nice alternative to drinking beer for those who don't like beer or just don't want to drink it. A bottle of hops capsules (which should last awhile) cost about the same as a six-pack anyway, so it probably makes more sense to just do that. Plus, all the medical reports I have read state very clearly that the level of these phyto-estrogens in beer is QUITE minimal, which would make sense since hops is only one of many ingredients in beer. The levels (of phyto estrogens) in some beer is even below the levels of detection for scientific evalutation. I happen to like beer, and I also drink hops tea. But, the capsules seem like they'd deliver more of a punch, if you want to derive your primary "estrogen-like" source from hops. Basil
|
|
|
Post by Moderator on Nov 9, 2003 12:24:57 GMT -5
From: fawnmarie42
I'm not suggesting ANYONE start drinking beer if they don't like it, don't want it, or are not supposed to drink it. I believe I was referring to the significance of massage, which does in fact stimulate prolactin release. I do a great deal of research and report the science, I don't make value judgements about my findings. If I were to find out that smoking marijuana helped or hindered, I would report that, too - whether or not I approve of it or not. And whether or not I ever intended to try it to see if it would. Some people have reported that using BCP pills help, and I think they are dangerous - but I don't rant off on people about all of the horrible things I did me when I was using them. (By the way, if you think drunk hicks are obnoxious and dangerous, it's NOTHING compared to the raging monster I am on BCPs!) Since I am married to an alcoholism counselor, I'm pretty much aware of the problems alcohol use can cause in alcoholics (who cannot handle it chemically) and in teenagers (who cannot handle it emotionally). 2-3 beers over a week is not considered a dangerous level for anyone with an adult body mass. I am not referring to 2-3 beers at once, I am talking about one beer, two or three nights a week. Cardiologists are now recommending 2-3 drinks of red wine PER DAY for cardiac health and antioxidant protection. Personally, I think that's excessive. Also - beer and hops do NOT work the same way. The reference was not to hops so much as the affect of alcohol on dopamine & prolactin levels. Believe me, if just dumping yet another phytoestrogen into our bodies did the trick, we would all now be on the "bad back" discussion group. Hops is a good phytoestrogen, but I believe my original post was about prolactin being increased by massage (which if not for the prohibition rant, would have remained the focus of the thread). Prolactin works with estrogen to determine fat storage and or milk production in the breast. Massage causes an increase in prolactin. Dopamine reduces prolactin. Things that increase dopamine are stimulants such as caffeine or nicotine. Things that increase prolactin are basically things that decrease dopamine (alcohol, kava kava & wellbutrin). I am not suggesting than anyone run out and get themselves either drunk or a bottle of zyban! If you don't drink - don't start! On the other hand, just taking hops is not going to increase the prolactin! (One note is the old wives' tale about drinking a small beer to help bring down milk when nursing - and it works.) MASSAGE increases prolactin. And that's what the original post was about. I don't think the issue is so much how long, but how often. For those of you who have nursed, think about how you'd massage to bring down engorgement, and how often you had to nurse to keep the milk supply up. For those of you who already enjoy an occasional drink - chose beer if it makes no difference. Don't worry, it does more good than bad. If you don't drink, don't worry about it. Find other ways to increase prolactin. Those who drink caffeine or use nicotine may want to cut back or stop. But the important thing is the massage. Fawn
|
|
|
Post by Moderator on Nov 9, 2003 12:26:04 GMT -5
Marie the great
Just wanted to thanks Fawn about the research she made! Great findings there! To confirm Fawn's saying, drinking beer does help with breasts. I had 2 strong european beers last night and I (once again) wake up with fuller breasts Quite pleasant! I think those beers raise my prolactin level quite a bit! It's actually cool that beer helps with BE because I LOVE beer! Especially hoppy beers! So it's even better But don't worry! I'm VERY responsible about that. I never drink and drive! Alright, take care guys! And chill out! Marie
|
|
|
Post by Moderator on Nov 9, 2003 12:27:18 GMT -5
From: shewdie Sent: 6/29/2003 11:14 PM
EXCELLENT WORK FAWN!!!!!! Thank You, Thank you, Thank you for sharing all your hard work with us. I always look forward to your posts because you are a generous, credible source of information and you can back up your findings with science/research. I think your latest discovery is so neat. I'll have to give it another read-over to let it sink in better as I'm sure I'll have a few questions later on. I've been looking forward to some new ideas from you. I never would have found this out on my own either. Looks like I'm gonna have to incorperate some massage to stimulate that prolactin. ~~Shewdie~~
|
|
|
Post by Moderator on Nov 9, 2003 12:27:56 GMT -5
From: warrior-girl Sent: 6/30/2003 7:46 AM Hi there Fawn, I've just been checking up on the posts I've missed (quite a lot of new stuff over the weekend) and it was great to see your latest pearls on massage. Thank you for sharing that! Massage is beginning to make sense! And so is cutting back on coffee and adding kava kava or the odd beer to block dopamine. I've just started back on BO after breaking for 3 cycles and am rounding out but not growing measurably. As one of the 'older' ladies, I can't even tell when I'm growing!! There are no tingles at all any more (used to get loads starting around day 10 - 12) and nothing much seems to happen in the follicular phase. I took this to mean I 'grew' in the luteal phase. Which seems improbable given my age. Maybe my biological age is younger than my age in years and this is why!! Anyway, thanks again for sharing! Fudge
|
|
|
Post by Moderator on Nov 9, 2003 12:28:36 GMT -5
Fawn
Prolactin levels are elevated during puberty, and then lower when full maturity is reached. The only time they are elevated afterwards is during pregnancy and lactation. Suffice it to say, these are generally the periods where the most breast growth occurs. Someone asked why Pammy & Mom might have gotten around the dopamine thing? I think the most important thing is that they have both been massaging. Also, for those of you who know about dieting and whatnot, as you might have read, fat cells replicate when the existing cells aren't adequate to store extra lipids. Well, these fat cells never die off, they just empty out. Generally one of the reasons that women gain a little in the breasts when pregnant is because more fat cells are created there, and then are emptied out during the process of nursing. This doesn't always happen with the first pregnancy. And it doesn't always happen at all. Pam and Mom have both had several kids. It's far easier to re-fill these empty fat cells than once they have been created. It also may be that their prolactin mechanism is a little more primed than others. Mostly I think it's been their dedication to the massage. (I hate to even bring this up - but as far as mammary development, humans most closely resemble your average milk cow, and our development parallels. It's been observed that cow udders do get bigger with subsequent pregnancies, but generally not until after the 4-5th calf has been born - then the increase with each pregancy until about the 8th calf when the largest size is generally reached. Personally, I would rather not have 8 kids to find out.) There are a lot of factors involved here. There are balances of other chemicals involved than just hormones - neurochemicals and blood proteins, etc. Prolactin is just one of them, and just thought I would remind everyone that prolactin is important and can be increased with massage. I don't think using a massager will do the trick - I think manually massage works better, such as that used to bring down milk when nursing, because this is the mechanism that causes an increase in prolactin. And I think frequency is more important than length - much like nursing itself. So - whether you drink or use wellbutrin or whatever - you still need to massage. Kava kava is an iffy subject, since it's been indicated to be worse for your liver than alcohol. I don't recommend any particularly - I think massage is probably more reliable and safer than all three. Alcohol causes brain damage, wellbutrin causes seizures and kava kava causes liver damage. Life is full of risks. Fawn
|
|
|
Post by Moderator on Nov 9, 2003 12:29:08 GMT -5
From: Mominator5 Sent: 6/30/2003 12:29 PM Hi Fawn, Thank you for answering my question concisely as usual. Two corrections and Pammy will prolly post on this, but she has only 1 child. I have 3 that I gave birth too. I only started massages about 8 weeks ago, most of growth was before massaging and with massaging I have seen great improvement with the pesky jumps. I was however doing some breast exercises, the exercises did not have any type of massaging involved. But....here's another thought besides the possibility of Pammy and I having higher prolactin than average, is it also possible that our levels of insulin are involved. Especially with me and PCOS? Which I know diabetes can be a side effect. (no I am not diabetic, but runs in family) I hate to have you think I am throwing wrenches into the equation, but maybe figuring some of this with the successes, especially those of us that do BAD things for BE, are succeeeding! Because I absolutely agree with your findings! Thanks for the info on the kava kava! That is very important to know, and if I have to take this avenue, count on me postin' to you! Fawn, it is so refreshing to see your thread, BE companies state "no caffiene" "no smoking" without any viable reasoning, with the exception that it involves hormones. Well so do their products. Thank you for taking your personal time to look further into this and what a BREAK through it is! There is no question in my mind and have posted many times the importance of massages! I believe it is vital to a successful BE program. Which is actually what your thread was regarding. But...seeing how thorough your research is, it does bring other possibilities to answers to the great BOOBIE MYSTERY! Thank you so much Fawn, Momi'
|
|
|
Post by Moderator on Nov 9, 2003 12:30:41 GMT -5
From: pammyboat Sent: 6/30/2003 1:24 PM
Hey Fawn, Momi's right, I've only got one child, but, I did get H-U-G-E while pregnant. Guess I was 'very' primed for it, lol. And no, I don't think you added to the chaos, you were the one with all that great information that you were kind enough to share with the rest of us. It's the crap that went on afterwards, that's all. Thanks for taking the time to post all that you have discovered. We really do appreciate it. pammy
|
|
|
Post by Moderator on Nov 9, 2003 12:33:18 GMT -5
From: Gïna Sent: 6/30/2003 1:27 PM
I guess I don't get it about the massage and prolactin levels. I've given birth to 4 full term infants and 1 midterm miscarriage. I nursed them all exclusively for anywhere from 6 months to 9 months before adding solids and then continued for 12 - 18 months total each. I produced massive amounts of milk and suffered from engorgement often since they all slept through the night by 7 weeks of age. The first slept 12 hours straight each night by 3 weeks of age and also grew a pound a week. And I can tell you all that full breast massage did nothing to relieve engorgement orf cause the let down reflex to respond. What needed to be done was the manual pumping of the areola for a few minutes as if it were being pumped by the jaws of an infant. And then the clamping down of the breasts happened and the fountains of milk began. So if it's prolactin we want to affect, it seems to me that areola massage with a pumping motion is what would need to be done. I don't know that any of us have been approaching it with this technique. I mean, shoot, what about purchasing an electric breast pump? It would be much cheaper than all the lotions and potions we've been buying. But then, wouldn't increasing prolactin cause milk production? Also, since my last child was born 13 years ago, I've been able to randomly express a small drop of clearish fluid from the nips. It seems my prolactin levels never dropped fully if this is happening. I don't do this often and it doesn't spontaneously happen but I bet I could take off my bra right now and work on a drop. But if all we need is a commitment to massage and it doesn't matter what lotion we use, why do we need any lotion. I can massage my breasts easily with no lotion. I can do it through my clothes whenever I have time through out the day if thats all it takes. Oh, and by the way, I just got home from Wal-mart with my giant bottle of saw palmetto berries. I used on of those bottles once before to the tune of approx. 3 grams a day and nothing happened. I can't imagine why I'm commiting to taking another bottle. Maybe I'm hoping that since my nutritional plan is different, different results from BE are in store. I'm trying to get primed with SP before I start BO again. Oh gosh, I hope the BO doesn't make me start to gain back all the weight I lost. Ramble ramble - sorry. Gina
|
|
|
Post by Moderator on Nov 9, 2003 12:34:08 GMT -5
From: Gïna Sent: 6/30/2003 1:29 PM
And really, I only honestly want to know how breast massage can affect prolactin when it's the babies suckling on the areola only that causes the milk let down to happen. Gina
|
|
|
Post by Moderator on Nov 9, 2003 12:35:24 GMT -5
From: fawnmarie42 Sent: 6/30/2003 3:09 PM
Gina, Um - without getting too vivid and graphic - I am suggesting that people massage as if they were getting ready to nurse - which means from the outside into the nipple, as though extracting milk. Did you ever have to hand-extract? Everyone is different, when I had engorgement, I only had to press on the tops and I would start squirting all over (sorry about the visual). Anyway - Hmmm... Well we do have some puzzles. But it seems to me that Mom & Pammy have been able to regain their largest size. As I said, if the fat cells have been created, it's not hard to fill them back up again. Have either of you gotten bigger than your largest size nursing? Gina - not sure why you've had so little luck with this. The change in diet should allow more free estrogen, but I'm not all that aware of what you've been doing so far. I know there are a couple of people that have had absolutely NO success with BE at all. Fawn
|
|
|
Post by Moderator on Nov 9, 2003 12:36:35 GMT -5
From: Gïna Sent: 6/30/2003 3:17 PM Fawn, I think I need vivid and graphic descriptions. After all, the only massage description I've read about is on the lotions and they all say to go in circular motions I think. I did much hand extraction of milk and all it took was the areola pumping and then the flood gates opened with nothing else needed but a bottle over the nipple. It was automatic fill up like at the gas pump. Turn it on and it goes. My complete profile was posted until yesterday when MSN dumped it during my name upgrade. I did fill out the survey though with the details. So what about regular periodic massage throughout the day without lotion? Should this be as effective? It would sure simplify things. Maybe if I do that, keep up my regular supplements, add Saw Palmetto and stay on Atkins, maybe then I'll be primed for when I add BO and some sort of miracle will happen. Fortunately I don't feel like it's the end of the world if I don't grow. It would sure be nice though. As long as my butt doesn't grow, I'll be happy enough. Gina
|
|
|
Post by Moderator on Nov 9, 2003 12:37:24 GMT -5
From: fawnmarie42 Sent: 6/30/2003 3:44 PM Hi Gina - I know who you are - but to protect everyone's privacy (as both of my computers are shared) - I removed everyone's survey information after the survey was complete. Just gently massage down from the circumference towards the nipple and then do the nipple as if extracting. And you can do it through your clothes, yes. And it shouldn't take very long. And really, there is more to it than just the prolactin. That's in addition to the stimulation of blood flow as well, which you will get. As for dieting and BO - i have found that BO doesn't cause weight gain, but it does completely stall it out. Phytoestrogens do cause weight gain. I haven't had any trouble with just SP, though. And I haven't tried damiana yet, which is supposed to block progesterone similar to the way SP blocks testosterone. I too low carb, so I know where you're coming from. Butt smaller is the priority here. Fawn
|
|
|
Post by Moderator on Nov 9, 2003 12:38:04 GMT -5
From: Hippychick555 Sent: 6/30/2003 9:56 PM
Thanks Fawn: For your description about massage. Never carried a baby (3 month miscarriage). I will try massaging in that fashion now, instead of just sort of rubbing in my potions. My growth has been fantastic so far (smoke and coffee drinker), and now with your new advise and I'm sure it will be even better!!! Can hardly wait till after AF to see! I am sure that you can tell by my posts that I am an optimist, as foolish as that may be at times. From what I have read I am very fortunate with my growth being as I am over 45. Hippychick
|
|