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Post by Moderator on Nov 9, 2003 15:58:16 GMT -5
From: Mominator5 Sent: 6/6/2003 10:24 AM
Hi Fawn, PS...thanks for the chart you posted. It's awesome and very helpful. Me studyin' it hard! Even if I am no fenugreek! Waitin' for Part 2 and 3 and 4 and 5 and 6..... Momi'
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Post by Moderator on Nov 9, 2003 15:58:36 GMT -5
From: fawnmarie42 Sent: 6/6/2003 12:06 PM Okay - not trying to prove or disprove anything - and I HOPE I'm making this simple enough for anyone with a basic dictionary to understand. Alright - at this point we can see that estrogen is required for breast growth, because of those above mentioned affects - increase in glandular tissue, retention of fats, increase of enzymes & increase of prolactin. My observation and subsequent theory being that breast growth occurs during periods of estrogen dominance. This would include early puberty and early and post pregnancy. Puberty: Age 7-8 Girls reach andrarche - which is when DHEA stops being used for brain growth and begins to be used for height and sexual development. Around 9-10, DHEA begins to be converted to androgens (or testosterone) which results in the growth of pubic and armpit hair. It also starts resulting in an increase of body fat. Around 10, Lutenizing hormone (LH) from the pituitary begins to be produced during the night which tells the ovaries to begin producing estrogen. The nightly release of LH is in response to the person reaching a certain size/weight/bodyfat level. The estrogen produced also causes an increase in body fat and causes the growth of milk glands and ducts, as well as causing the maturation of the vagina and uterus. During the next two years, the pulses of LH increase and begin occuring during the day. At this point, puberty is in full swing and this period is marked by unopposed estrogen exposure to the target tissues. The period is also marked by the production of prolaction (girls only), in response to heightened estrogen levels. Around 12 - The rise and fall of estrogen eventually leads to menarche (first period), which is then erratic as hormone levels cycle and finally become regular. Around 13/14: Eventually ovum ripen and ovulation occurs and progesterone is produced. Progesterone blocks both estrogen and prolactin receptors, as well as blocking cortisol receptors (cortisol is also necessary for aromatase production - more data further). It does, however, stimulate the growth of the aveoli and connections from the duct to the nipple. This process, however, is still incomplete until month 3 of the first pregancy. During the next year or two, ovulation (and thus progesterone production) is erratic, until it falls into a normal, mature cycle of every 28 days or so. Once progesterone cycles regularly with ovulation, and the required amount of fat for adult reproduction is achieved, the intial stage of breast size growth is complete, and will not get much bigger without the use of synthetic chemicals, pregnancy or extreme weight gain. My theory is that breast size growth is not only related to ovarian-produced estrogen - but to peripheral estrogen production in the cells themselves through aromatization. This process is one reason that I conclude that breast growth requires estrogen dominance. Pregnancy to follow: End of Part 2
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Post by Moderator on Nov 9, 2003 15:58:53 GMT -5
From: Wenonae_ Sent: 6/6/2003 12:54 PM Go AT it Fawn. Yeah!, some nice scientific explanations to explain what several of us are feeling and are trying to explain. Say, Momi'/Pammy...we've GOTTA add this link to under...'Why this Forum thinks breasts grow' on Discoveries or some other page. ...can't wait to see the rest of the parts/chapters! I've loving this.
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Post by Moderator on Nov 9, 2003 15:59:07 GMT -5
From: Mominator5 Sent: 6/6/2003 1:29 PM Hi Wen, That's exactly where this is all going! I have to create a new page for it. Or remove some stuff cuz it ain't gonna fit! We just have too much info on this board! Dang wish we had search capabilities! I'm lovin' the info too! Thanks Wenonae! Momi'
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Post by Moderator on Nov 9, 2003 15:59:25 GMT -5
From: Mansi Sent: 6/6/2003 1:37 PM
HI Fawn, Thanks for all the information. It is really great and simple and interesting. Mansi
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Post by Moderator on Nov 9, 2003 15:59:46 GMT -5
From: Mominator5 Sent: 6/6/2003 1:38 PM
Fawn, Once again your explanations are clear and concise! Just to drop it down a few notches for simplicity and please correct me if I am wrong! The theory is still stickin' given the information you are providing. The theory is based as to when a person can measure growth. The basic theory, is we are producing growth at all times, however, it is not distributed as "growth" until days the estrogen is a lil' lower and progesterone is higher. As your chart is reflecting estrogen tends to be it's lowest days 1-5 with an incline. Which is why I suspect I tend to grow during my mensus, usually about day 3-5. After Auntie has taken away the water that she so generously gives prior to menstration. Waiting for chapter 3...and so on! Thank you so much, I do realize how time consuming typing all this is not to mention the work involved, checking, double checking, re-reading, etc Momi'
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Post by Moderator on Nov 9, 2003 16:00:02 GMT -5
From: fawnmarie42 Sent: 6/6/2003 1:46 PM Mom, This is the paper I've been promising to write up since before you joined the board. : ) However, it is not as complete as I would like, and the references are missing. I am, at this point - just typing along - HOPING I will get the whole and holistic process in some form that can be understood, interpreted and perhaps used by someone. However, if I don't do it in chapters - and then revise and edit, etc. later - I will never get it done. Still not trying to prove/disprove anything - just trying to get all the data in. Some will be bigger during the follicular phase because of estrogen - some during the luteal phase due to premenstrual bloat. What may make a difference is stage of growth, lack of ovulation, etc. Does fudge have kids? If forgot. Working on Part 3 - Changes during Pregnancy Fawn
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Post by Moderator on Nov 9, 2003 16:00:23 GMT -5
From: fawnmarie42 Sent: 6/6/2003 1:52 PM Also - will eventually copy and paste everything together as a document - provide references, make any necessary revisions and make it available to the Board. Back to work... Fawn
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Post by Moderator on Nov 9, 2003 16:00:38 GMT -5
From: Mominator5 Sent: 6/6/2003 4:46 PM Hi Fawn, We still appreciate your efforts whether is something you are doing for yourself or not. It so wonderful that you are sharing this information and your theories with us. It helps us to understand our bodies better! Yes Fudge does have kids. I believe she also has 3, possibly 4, she's on vacation, so we can't veryify this. But I know she does have kids. One day all the little surveys, your intense studying, conversations, people noting progress, journals, may put this mystery into a light. Thank you again Momi'
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Post by Moderator on Nov 9, 2003 16:01:00 GMT -5
From: fawnmarie42 Sent: 6/6/2003 4:56 PM Mom, Actually - NOT doing it for myself, but can't stand the mystery. I've pretty much had it with the mood swings of BE, and am aggravated with the whole process start to finish. However.. can't stand a mystery.... If andro steroids put muscles on men, why don't estrogen steroids put boobs on women. Missing factor. Anyway - part 3 will NOT be changes in pregnancy. : ) Fawn
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Post by Moderator on Nov 9, 2003 16:01:26 GMT -5
From: fawnmarie42 Sent: 6/6/2003 4:56 PM
Mom - Oh! Almost forgot - how old is fudge. I forgot that too! F
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Post by Moderator on Nov 9, 2003 16:01:45 GMT -5
From: Mominator5 Sent: 6/6/2003 5:00 PM
I believe Fudge is around my age which is 43. She might be 38-43? I know she has teenagers. Did she complete a survey for you? That might be a way to verify. Momi'
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Post by Moderator on Nov 9, 2003 16:02:06 GMT -5
From: fawnmarie42 Sent: 6/6/2003 5:07 PM
Mom - For "confidentiality", I did not save the data under any names, also to promote "objectivity". Sheesh - really made it more work in the end. The thing I am getting at is that perhaps fudge is feeling the effects in the luteul phase because she is not ovulating at all, and thus - not producing progesterone, so is naturally estrogen dominant anyway. At 43 - it is highly likely she isn't ovulating, or isn't ovulating regularly. Anyway - am doing further research and trying to pull this all together. Still have some things to look up on cellular mitosis. Fawn
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Post by Moderator on Nov 9, 2003 16:02:27 GMT -5
From: warrior-girl Sent: 6/8/2003 2:42 AM Hi Fawn, Great info! I'm trying to digest it all! I've been working a lot before leaving on Tues night, so haven't checked the board till now. Here's my info: 2 children, age 42 (just had my birthday a month ago). My cycles are usually standard - 28 days long, around 5 - 6 days. I think I'm still ovulating (still feel the ovulation twinge I used to feel). And as far as I know have no signs of perimenopause but who knows. My mum didn't go menopausal until late 40s I think. Period this month was 5 days early - I started fenugreek about three weeks ago (500mg 3xdaily so could it be that?). I'm also more likely to be converting estrogen to progesterone or testerone I think (warrior type). I don't tend to put on weight easily. It accumulates very slowly. I've been on B.O. - nearly 2 years all together and didn't really gain much from it if at all. I don't know if this tells you anything about how my body deals with estrogen. My growth patterns: I don't really keep tabs any more (as I stalled out about 6 months ago on BO) - sorry, but I just got fed up with it!!!. What normally happened was: days of bleeding (days 1 - 5, say), no tingles at first, but they'd return by about day 3-4. By day 10 they were strong and would seem to waver, then build up again to about day 14. From Day 14 - 28 I can't remember what kind of tingles I had (more soreness than tingles as I remember) - mostly this is my fullest time although the tingles have changed and boobs would be almost painful. Results often disappeared 2-3 days before period actually started. Hope this helps Fawn. I'll try to check in but don't have much time (working this weekend too). Thanks so much for your valiant efforts! It's great that you can make sense of some of all this!! Fudge
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