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Post by Moderator on Nov 9, 2003 16:33:54 GMT -5
From: MizzCharlie (Original Message) Sent: 4/28/2003 9:03 PM
Hi everyone,
I thought I would share what's going on with me at the moment. I stopped using as much progeseterone (form using 40mg to barely 5-10mg a day) when Fawn found out from her research that it may actually hinder our growth. And how I have paid for it! I actually started spotting a 1 1/2 weeks before I was due for my periods and I got them today at day 25....not only that, but this weekend I was a wreck. I mean I had the worst PMS I've had in a looong time. All saturday I couldn't stop being the most irritable b*!ch I have ever been and then on sunday I was so incredibly emotional. I mean, I was at the gym and this stupid cheesy song came on about love and I just couldn't stop the tears from coming, I had to leave the gym!! And should I tell you about the cramps I had today....??
On top of it all, at the beginning of this cycle I felt like I had gotten some real fullness that I was ready to call growth, but now I feel I have lost it all with this no progesterone cycle.
I don't get this, the mega PMS would mean I am estrogen dominan, but then the spotting and early periods would mean I am progesterone dominant. What is going on here?
All you girls that have grown for real, is it true you didn't use progesterone? (I know you didn't Pammy, is there anyone else?)
Please let me know your thoughts on this issue as I am completely torn in half between Bob's research and Fawn's research.
Zen.
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Post by Moderator on Nov 9, 2003 16:34:33 GMT -5
From: fawnmarie42 in response to Message 1 Sent: 4/28/2003 9:16 PM
Zen,
Go IMMEDIATELY back to the progesterone! If you've been taking it a while, maybe you need to step off it it slowly. Did the spotting start right after you dropped your dosage? If you are at day 25, go right back on your regular dosage til day 28. NEXT month - step down a little, using only 20, and it shouldn't be so tough.
It's the drop in progesterone (and estrogen) that starts your period and if you dropped your dosage in the middle of your cycle like that, I can see why it messed you up so bad.
I'm really, really sorry if this screwed you up and made you feel so crummy!
Fawn
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Post by Moderator on Nov 9, 2003 16:35:10 GMT -5
From: Gïna in response to Message 1 Sent: 4/28/2003 9:21 PM
Hi Zen, I understand your worries. I've decided to skip the progesterone for this month and see what happens. So far I'm only a short time into what would have been my progesterone phase. I'm beginning to worry already since I should have ovulated a few days ago and I never felt it like I always do and my temps haven't gone up like they always do after ovulating. I'm wondering if I'm going to have an anovulatory cycle. If so, what will happen to my period. I only hope I don't go back to major cramping. The suspense will kill me waiting for my period I think. And to top it off, I feel like my butt is growing and not my boobs at all even though I haven't gained weight. It's becoming he11 to zip my jeans even though I've used yohimburn. I hate this.
Gina
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Post by Moderator on Nov 9, 2003 16:35:42 GMT -5
From: MizzCharlie in response to Message 3 Sent: 4/29/2003 12:41 AM
Hi Fawn,
I did start the spotting when I lowered my progesterone. I had some idea it would do this but not to the extent that it would bring on the PMS like it did! I've been spoiled in the last few months because I have had no PMS, cramping, bloating WHATSOEVER. But please, don't feel bad about it, it was completely my idea to do this and I should've waited a new cycle I guess. Oh well, hopefully some other people will learn from my mistake. Maybe it'll just start my growing..??
I am honestly sick of this BE. It had been a year and I have tried everything there is to try with no result. I have been considering quitting for a few months but I'm always like 'I haven't tried this...or that...maybe it'll just work this way...or that way...' but I can't seem to give up. Ahhhhh, why can't I get some GROWTH!!!!
Oops, sorry Fawn, this wasn't addressed to you but I just had to let it out!
By the way, how is your effort going? Any progress so far?
Let me know,
Zen.
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Post by Moderator on Nov 9, 2003 16:36:27 GMT -5
From: Patty in response to Message 1 Sent: 4/29/2003 9:13 AM
Hi Zen,
Sorry to hear about your trouble, what a pain to go through all this....I fully sympathize.
I did not take progesterone until last December. When I first started the herbs I had terrible PMS, I was even getting into heated arguments with some co-workers and being really mean to people. I was always at the verge of emotional outbursts, either crying or fighting, but my breasts were growing fast.
One thing that helped tremendously was adding EPO, my symptoms disappeared like magic and never had PMS for as long as I took it. I went off the EPO for only one month and my bitchiness returned with a vengeance, that convinced me that the EPO is essential to prevent PMS. If you decide to stay off the progesterone cream, EPO, while expensive could help you manage the PMS symptoms. It did for me.
Now that I am on progesterone I only take the EPO a few times a month, but if I were to discontinue the progesterone I would go back to 3,000mg of EPO a day.
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Post by Moderator on Nov 9, 2003 16:36:59 GMT -5
From: fawnmarie42 in response to Message 4 Sent: 4/29/2003 9:14 AM
Gina, Start back on at day 21 and stop on day 30 or when your period starts - whichever comes first. If you DO want to cut back on progesterone to see if it helps BE, then as in my other post, start on day 21 - and go to 30.
I know how you feel - I'm in the second phase too, and hungry all the time and feel oogy and bloated and have a couple of new zits. Ick, but I know it's very temporary.
Zen - aren't you a visonary type?
Have you tried straight BO yet for any length of time? Were I you, I would take a break to the beginning of my next cycle with nothing but nutrients and EPO & salmon/fish oil (3000mgs each per day, 1000mg each with meals). Continue with the progesterone until your next period.
Once your period starts, start BO, 2000 mgs first phase, 2400 second phase, 10-20 mgs progesterone from days 21-32. Take 1000 mgs saw palmetto x 3 times a day on an empty stomach. Add topical EPO with saw palmetto.
Continue with the EPO/salmon oil through the whole program. Try to add some fish or chicken to your diet, if you can. If you can't, add some cheese and eggs if possible.
Your best bet is to stagger small protein meals with regular meals. Take your BO, EPO & salmon oil with a small protein snack. Try a boiled egg, piece of cheese, or a handful of nuts.
It looks like you've been on progesterone the whole time - so I think backing down or quitting (slowly - and then cycling it every 3-4 months) might help.
Since you are a visionary type, it will take about 6 months to see anything substantial - unless this program proves as effective for visionary types as I think it will. Hopefully you will see some in only 3 months.
Fawn
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Post by Moderator on Nov 9, 2003 16:37:26 GMT -5
From: fatso in response to Message 5 Sent: 4/29/2003 12:38 PM
Zen,
Are you doing the massage, and I mean the actual massage with the EPO and heat. I think it has been helping me. I am still loosing weight but none in my breast area.
O' BTW, during one of my cycles last fall I was taking 40m per day of progesterone because I was taking so much estrogen then I forgot to take it one day and got really really really bad cramps so bad that I could not even walk for about 2 hours. The next day or two I started my period, on day 17 of my cycle.
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Post by Moderator on Nov 9, 2003 16:38:05 GMT -5
From: fatso in response to Message 7 Sent: 4/29/2003 12:41 PM
Also I have NEVER been a cramper. Usually when I start my periods I never feel a thing. I used to think that people lied about having to stay in bed when getting cramps. But that day I found out the truth about severe cramping.
Fatso
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Post by Moderator on Nov 9, 2003 16:38:29 GMT -5
From: fawnmarie42 in response to Message 8 Sent: 4/29/2003 2:36 PM
I get worse cramping WITH progesterone, but shorter periods. I do have better moods, no feeling sad and a little less water retention.
The cramps are the pits, though.
Fawn
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Post by Moderator on Nov 9, 2003 16:38:50 GMT -5
From: Mansi in response to Message 1 Sent: 4/29/2003 4:13 PM
Hi everyone,
I am sorry but I just don't understand this whole progestrone thing at all. Can someone please explain to me:
Why some people use progestrone in BE program while some don'r?
What is the role (if any) of progestrone in BE?
DOes use of progestrone depends on type of Be program you are on (herbs or BO)?
Thanks a lot
Mansi
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Post by Moderator on Nov 9, 2003 16:39:12 GMT -5
From: Patty in response to Message 10 Sent: 4/30/2003 10:34 AM
Mansi,
The reason some of us take progesterone is that if we believe we are estrogen dominant (indicated by PMS symptoms) the progesterone helps keep us balanced as it opposes estrogen. Progesterone is consider a mother hormone. Many ailments are attributed to estrogen dominance, including cancer, infertility and obesity.
Another issue is the belief that progesterone plays a role in breast development -particulary duct lobes- along with estrogen, especially during pregnancy and puberty. Some people believe it is essential for BE, others don't. The jury is still out, as some of us are growing abeit slowly with the progesterone and others without it.
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Post by Moderator on Nov 9, 2003 16:39:34 GMT -5
From: fawnmarie42 in response to Message 11 Sent: 4/30/2003 11:01 AM
Pregnenolone is the "mother hormone" - as it is used to make the rest of the steroid hormones - including the glutocortocoids.
Excess estrogen can be anything from dangerous to uncomfortable, and which side it falls also depends on other lifestyle factors. Most estrogen-dependent DNA damage related to breast cancer occurs during puberty when the ducts are first grown, generally due to long-term unopposed estrogen exposure. Normally there is unopposed estrogen starting about 2 years prior to menarche until ovulation begins - up to 2 years after. The first full-term pregnancy after menarche causes the final completion of growth and development, which further protects the cells from estrogen damage (due to the high levels of progesterone during pregnancy). The mammary glands involute (i.e. atrophy) starting around the age of 25, and are completely gone by the age of 60 or so. If these tissues do not involute properly because of DNA damage they can become cancerous
Fawn
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Post by Moderator on Nov 9, 2003 16:40:16 GMT -5
From: fawnmarie42 in response to Message 12 Sent: 4/30/2003 11:09 AM
BTW - I did not intend to state that progesterone "hinders" growth - as much as I meant to state that using it every single month would hinder growth. Using it every months will create homeostasis - balance - which is an equalization of the body. Since what we are trying to do is create change, then balance should not be attempted ALL the time.
The way I interpret the results of the survey is that using it every three months recreates a hormonal situation that more closely mimics that during puberty - when ovulation occurs infrequently and estrogen exposure is dominant. The progesterone is required to "finish" growth, but in a normal pubescent girl, ovulation and hence progesterone production occurs on an infrequent basis - generally starting about 6 months after menarche and then irregularly for the next 1 or two years.
It also recreates a hormonal situation that more closely mimics pregnancy. Most breast growth during pregnancy occurs in the first trimester (before the placenta with its progesterone is created), the last trimester (when progesterone begins to fall in preparation of childbirth) and during postpartum and nursing (when estrogen rise again and prolactin are high and progesterone is non-existant).
Fawn
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Post by Moderator on Nov 9, 2003 16:40:35 GMT -5
From: Mansi in response to Message 13 Sent: 4/30/2003 12:04 PM
Fawn, So most optiomal condition for BE will be to go all estrogen for 3-4 moths and then incorporate progestrone for a month and then repeat the cycle right? This will closely mimic puberty. As you know it is just over a month since I am on Pammy's routine. So may be two months later, I will try to incorporate some progestrone for sometime and then back to normal cycle. I will see how that goes with me.
Thanks a lot
Mansi
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Post by Moderator on Nov 9, 2003 16:40:55 GMT -5
From: Mansi in response to Message 14 Sent: 4/30/2003 12:06 PM
Fawn, I did not get any grwoth throughout the pregnancy. But I got growth during postpartum and nursing.
Does this suggest anything at all? (In terms of what my BE regime should be)?
Mansi
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