Sanoe's Routine

[sanoe]

Hi, This will be my first cycle to start NBE. I'll be using the ramp that's posted on Madredesiete's routine. Beginning with FG, however it is 640mg. So will be starting with that, please let me know if this will be a problem later. Than moving to SP 500mg than WY 500mg.

I will also be taking EPO 1000mg 3x a day. And borage oil before bed. Should I ramp these too? Or can I just begin taking them from the first day. I also have FSO, is this important to take too? Also a multivitamin daily.

I dont quite understand how to evaluate the pains and itches. If for example I start feeling them in between ramping, do I stop ramping and just stay at the level that brought on the pains? Or for example if I feel pain before adding WY, do I continue to add WY? And if I read correctly, If Im at the 3000 a day dose and stop feeling pain, I should ramp down, right.

I guess I'll gain more experience as I go through the cycle and with your help.

Also will be steeping FG and RC in EVO today. In the meantime will massage daily wilth body lotion. Than apply heat after.

Thankyou for all your help and advice thus far. Wish had found this site sooner.

[Wahaika]

Sanoe,

Is your medication an MAO inhibitor?

(I asked this in your stats page also, just answer in one place)

Wahaika

[sanoe]

Hi Wahaika,

I take zoloft which is an SSRI (seratonin) and Wellbutrin which increases dopamine. Im quite sure they are not MAO inhibitors.

Im not sure if I posted this or not, but, my menstrual cyces are not regular. They come every 5-6weeks or so. Will this make any difference with the herbs?

[Wahaika]

Yep, irregular cycles that are that long might be a drawback. But it also depends on why they are that far apart. If your meds are causing that then you may just be stuck with it. But if you are just long on progesterone then your ramp up will do the compensation for you and may even shorten your cycle.

Some research on which receptors that your medicine is attempting to fill along with if they compete for the same receptors as the herbs, should be looked into.

Do you know why your cycle is that long and irregular?

It would be good to get Fawn's opinion.


Wahaika

[sanoe]

The strange thing is that my meds have actually improved my menstrual cycles. Before going on them I'd NEVER menstruate, I'd have to bring it on with provera.

[Wahaika]

I will do some research on this, but really, talk to Fawn. This has just enough things that I have not taken a look at, but she just might have.

I'll post what I find right here in a few days.

Wahaika

[sanoe]

Thank you for your efforts, Wahaika. I left a post for Fawn, so Im anxious to hear from her. And I'll stop everything till I get my routine straight.

Just a side question, why not extracts instead of capsules?

[Wahaika]

Extracts come in different strengths. Some are alcoholic, some are non-alcoholic. I think that the Greenbush extracts are great! They are also easier to ramp up because they are easier to subdivide. They are probably more bioavailable.

[Wahaika]

Hi Sanoe,

It has been a while since I have even thought about some of the depression meds. Here is what I came up with:

Fenugreek and fennel contain tryptophan, which is a serotonin precursor.

It also appears that fenugreek increases dopamine levels.

Based on all of that, the herbs appear to work with SSRIs because they are serotonin agonists/precursors, and fenugreek appears to work with wellbutrin as a dopamine agonist. On the other hand, depending on how your dosages (meds) are balanced, it could throw it all off balance.

There are other effects that come with fenugreek and fennel with regard to the lowering of sugar levels and the raising of estrogen dominance symptoms. These two effects may offset what your meds are trying to accomplish. Many women who are not on the meds that you are, often experience very harsh symptoms. Sometimes they are easily remedied with a little patience, sometimes not.

I don't have a better answer than that, but Fawn is much more familiar in this area than I am and her answer deserves serious consideration. Whatever you end up with, my advise is to take it slow and keep good records of BE's effect on your behavior. Keeping your doctor in the loop would be extremely good advice.

See also this thread:
beboard.proboards107.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=NonBE&thread=1153479464&page=1

Good luck,

Wahaika

[cherub]

"Fenugreek and fennel contain tryptophan, which is a serotonin precursor.

It also appears that fenugreek increases dopamine levels. "

Hi Wahaika - please excuse my ignorance but can you explain this in more simpler terms so that I can understand. I'm curious because I had previously been taking the anti-depressant citalopram (for minor depression) before starting my routine. I haven't been taking it since I started but for some reason, I find that I don't even "need it" and I feel the same as if I were on it (does that make sense?), ie. I'm not experiencing my usual mood swings.

So now I'm wondering if the herbs have some benefit in this way too?

Cherub

[Wahaika]

Cherub,

>>"I haven't been taking it since I started but for some reason, I find that I don't even "need it" and I feel the same as if I were on it (does that make sense?), ie. I'm not experiencing my usual mood swings. "

Yep, it makes perfect sense. Here it is as simple as I can state it:

Citalopram is an SSRI. SSRI stands for Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors. Their purpose is to address what the physician thinks is a Serotonin deficiency by stopping or slowing the reuptake of it into brain cells, thus making it more efficient - last longer.

Tryptophan is an amino acid which is a precursor (building block) to Serotonin.

If one were to take trytophan under the right conditions, like with a high amount of carbs in the diet, the result would be more trytophan in the bloodstream. This is good if you are trying to increase serotonin as is the goal with SSRIs.

Fenugreek contains Tryptophan.

So far so good?

Here is where it gets interesting. Fenugreek lowers blood sugar.

Low blood sugar makes one feel out of energy and can give headaches. Would this simulate depression? I would say so. Now, if you are taking a medicine, any medicine, and you are still having symptoms, what is the logical conclusion? That the medicine is not strong enough, perhaps? Or that the dosage is not high enough, perhaps? How would a doctor know the difference?

For you, fenugreek probably has the same effect as an SSRI (perhaps weaker) because your diet probably has enough carbs to a) Allow more free Tryptophan to be in your bloodstream, and b) Compensate for the lowered blood sugar caused by the fenugreek. But for someone else, who may be avoiding carbs because they were trying to lose weight (for example - I have no one in mind) then they would be feeling depression symptoms that were caused by the combination of diet and fenugreek.

So far, so good?

What if the BE'er who is taking SSRIs in fact, has an SSRI dosage that is too low? How does the doctor or the patient know what is causing the depression symptoms? What if it is the fenugreek, but the doctor has no idea that fenugreek is being taken? What if the doctor knows that fenugreek is being taken, but now has to decide if his dosage is too low or the fenugreek is the cause of the problem?

Fenugreek also causes estrogen dominance symptoms in some women which can make them feel depressed. Hops is famous for this. There is yet another dimension to the problem for anyone on depression meds.

Let's suppose one is depressed about their being overweight. They take fenugreek, up their carb intake and avoid depression symptoms from low blood sugar, but end up gaining weight because of the increased carb intake. My wife occasionally accuses me of thinking too much.

So, that's how that looks to me when anyone is taking SSRIs or MAO inhibitors (another discussion, but similar problem) and is doing a BE program.

Solution? I would say based on your experience, that upping the carbs would be a good idea. Making sure the doctor knows every detail of the BE routine is essential, observing one's self and keeping records of emotional behavior as well as growth would be a good idea.

I just reread this. It makes sense to me, but does it make sense to you?

Wahaika

[cherub]

Thanks so much, Wahaika - yes, it makes perfect sense!

It sounds like if I were to start back on the meds while on BE, there is a good chance I could throw everything out of whack?

I hadn't even been thinking about my meds until I read this thread, and I realized that I've been pretty "happy" without them. Thanks for confirming my thoughts that the herbs were helping. I have been eating a lot more to gain weight, and will make sure to increase the carb intake.


Cherub

[sanoe]

So what you're saying is that if one is taking enough carbs, Fenugreek will help with depression. On the other hand if one is hardly eating carbs, Fenugreek will cause depression.

What I dont understand is the part you say " what if the BE'er who is taking an SSRI in fact, has a dosage that is too low." Are you refering to a person who just began an SSRI? For example, let's say it takes aprox. 6 weeks for a doctor and patient to come up with the right dose of an SSRI. Before the end of that period the patient begins a BE program with Fenugreek. She is not dieting so has enough carbs. Will the Fenugreek mask the correct dosage? For example, she would do well on 50mg of an SSRI (w/o fenugreek), but now that she's on a BE she needs 75mg.

[Wahaika]

>>"So what you're saying is that if one is taking enough carbs, Fenugreek will help with depression. On the other hand if one is hardly eating carbs, Fenugreek will cause depression."

Fenugreek will not cause depression. But it may mimic some symptoms that people associate with depression such as high estrogen symptoms like weepiness, B-itchiness, and hypoglycemic symptoms due to the lowering of blood sugar such as feeling out of energy and getting headaches.

>>"...Are you refering to a person who just began an SSRI?"

Yes. That would be one stage where the dosages are still being evaluated and adjusted.

>>"Will the Fenugreek mask the correct dosage?"

In reality, probably not. The most that would probably happen is that there would be more tryptophan in the bloodstream, to make more serotonin, which would make the SSRI more effective. But the symptoms that fenugreek and other estrogenic herbs have as side effects, as mentioned above, is what I am really more concerned about. Someone may be feeling these and think that they are having depression problems, or that their SSRI dosage is too low. This could start a chain reaction of trying to second guess the effectiveness of the SSRI dosage when in reality it may be just fine.

This is why it is suggested so strongly that the physician prescribing the meds be completely informed of the BE program.

[sanoe]

Ordered extracts from Greenbush. Began taking it instead of capsules about a week ago. Im on my 14th day of cycle, 5th day of taking FG, SP and WY 1/2 ml 3x a day. Forgot about EPO and FSO, so I began taking it 3x a day each. Havent felt much pain. Just little twinges here and there. Does any one else take extracts from greenbush? If so, how are you measuring extracts dropper or measuring spoons? It gets confusing after a while. I just want to make sure Im getting the right dosage.