elusia's routine

[elusia]

I've been following F2F since September using mainly Greenbush's herbs:

3 times daily:

3 capsules Saw Palmetto
3 capsules Fenugreek
3 capsules Red Clover - but for the last 3 weeks I've been taking Wild Yam instead as I have arthritic problems and it is supposed to be effective against inflammation

In the evening I've been taking 1000 mg Gaba, and in the morning 1 capsule PABA. I also eat Primrose oil almost daily, as well as multivitamins.

In the morning I massage with
1/2 a dropper hops and 1/2 a dropper licorice + 10 drops cayenne
In the evening I massage with a full dropper fenugreek

I have been diagnosed with a slightly slow thyroid, and perhaps that has something to do with the fact that I eat soy products daily - which I'm now in the process of cutting down as I've just learned that it can slow the thyroid down.

I'm getting tired of popping all these pills, especially since I haven't seen any progress - not even any soreness or tingling - and I feel more and more nauseous when I eat the pills. My plan is actually to take a break now that I've been taking my pills for 3 months and get on a regimen to get my thyroid on track again. I was advised to eat a lot of seaweed which I will do! Does anyone know of anything else that I can do to help the thyroid, while keeping in mind that it has to be vegan (a lot of thyroid boosters are from animal source).

Thanks to Wen and Wahaika for your comments

[Wahaika]

Elusia,

Kelp and L-Tyrosine are helpful for a slow thyroid.

Agree - replace the red clover with saw palmetto.

Since you are a AA, your fenugreek dosages are too high and you are stalled. Greenbush capsules are 575mg each.
(575)(3)(3) = 5175mg per day. You are definitely stalled.

For your size you should be responding at between 1 capsule three times per day and two capsules three times per day. (1725 to 3450 mg per day.) I would say that you should be around 2300 or so, but that's just my guess. Everyone is different.

Were you a AA before children? It would help to know if you are really a B that deflated to a AA due to breastfeeding, or if you have always been a AA. If you used to be a B, 3000mg of fenugreek is OK as a maximum. If you are already getting feelings of growth, then you will probably not have to add too much.

Have you considered a drop or two of DMSO with the massage ? To be used with fenugreek extract (and maybe hops, perhaps even Red Clover) but not cayenne or licorice.

Wahaika

[buffy]

You can also try taking virgin coconut oil and painting iodine on your stomach (do a search on the site for iodine) to try to help out your thyroid. I just found that I have many symptoms of hypothyroid and will be doing some of that myself.

Coconut oil also appears to have a probiotic effect, and may help with weight loss.

[Wenonae]

buffy said:

You can also try taking virgin coconut oil and painting iodine on your stomach (do a search on the site for iodine) to try to help out your thyroid. I just found that I have many symptoms of hypothyroid and will be doing some of that myself.

Coconut oil also appears to have a probiotic effect, and may help with weight loss.

Coconut oil is an excellent suggestion. You can also use it to cook with to intake what you need. Also just from my observation, if you have not seen or felt anything for 3 months, then like you're thinking, your herb combinations probably aren't the best for your breast growth.

Also, there's lots of herbs which have anti-inflammation properties like the w/y ur already taking, burdock, dandelion, evening primrose oild, red clover, passionflower. You can Google info up about those.

Best of'

Wen'

[elusia]

Wahaika-
1) you say replace red clover with saw palmetto, from what I understand from F2F one should exchange red clover for wild yam, not saw palmetto and that is what I have done.
2) I've always been very skinny and before nursing I was still AA but maybe 32 or 34 AA - now I'm 36 AA and I don't understand how I could be any bigger in my band measure because I'm so skinny on my upper body (not the belly and butt!!) that you can see my ribs I'm trying hard to gain weight but the more capsules I take the less appetite I have so it's not easy. It's usually not easy anyway for me to gain weight, which is unexpected as a slow thyroid is supposed to make you gain weight, right?

When I emailed greenbush about my lack of results they told me to add more herbs:

It is true that the estrogen receptors in
the body will only accept their limit of
phyto-estrogens and the rest will be washed out of the
system. But if you don't get to that point you are
still not getting enough of the herbs. And, there are
elements in these herbs other than the phyto-estrogens
that attach to the receptors.
A much bigger mistake with this program is to
take too little. It is practically impossible to take
too much of these herbs. They have all been used as
food in different cultures. Fenugreek has been
studied in India using 4 ounces of the herb per day,
the equivalent to over 200 capsules.
Just increase a couple of capsules and a
little more extract every week until you begin to feel
some changes.

So I since the middle of November I have been taking 1 dropper full 3 times daily of Fenugreek and Wild Yam in addition to the other herbs. I have felt something very little in my breasts lately, but so little that I can't even call it tingling and only for a few minutes once every other day or so.

What is DMSO? Why should I not use cayenne drops and wild yam in my boobie batter?

Wen and Buffy-

I already eat coconut oil daily as suggested by my shiatsu therapist! I love it but I'm concerned when I read that coconut oil can cause you to lose weight - I want to gain weight!

I will not be taking any more anti inflammatory herbs as I've read that one shouldn't take too many herbs at the same time, so I'll stick with the Wild Yam until I take a 1 month break as prescribed in F2F after 3 full months. After that I'm going to try dowsing and see what I come up with!

I hope you get help with your thyroid also, Buffy! Let me know how it goes and thank you to all of you for your input!

[buffy]

elusia said:

When I emailed greenbush about my lack of results they told me to add more herbs:

It is true that the estrogen receptors in
the body will only accept their limit of
phyto-estrogens and the rest will be washed out of the
system. But if you don't get to that point you are
still not getting enough of the herbs. And, there are
elements in these herbs other than the phyto-estrogens
that attach to the receptors.
A much bigger mistake with this program is to
take too little. It is practically impossible to take
too much of these herbs. They have all been used as
food in different cultures. Fenugreek has been
studied in India using 4 ounces of the herb per day,
the equivalent to over 200 capsules.
Just increase a couple of capsules and a
little more extract every week until you begin to feel
some changes.

So... We have anecdotal evidence on this board that the above is not true, that too much of an herb can cause one to stall. Has anyone found any scientific evidence to support either theory?

buff

[Wenonae]

No scientific evidence...just real test subject proof via posters that the above isn't necessarily true for all.

Wen'

[zanyzara]

Elusia

I was an AA (grown 1/5 inch to an A) and taking that dose of Phyestrogens definitely caused me to stall. I started on a small dose and straight away I got some soreness, I ramped up too quickly and the soreness went away. I changed from Fenugreek to fennel because of the smell and done the same mistake again, i then ramped down and the soreness appeared again.

I am still on 1 cap X 3 a day of fennel. if I have another 1/2 inch growth I might increase the dose.

But being small you do have to watch your dose.

You should go to the routines page Wahaika has a good explanation of stalling there.

ZZ

[elusia]

ZZ,
congratulations on your progress! I think one difference between you and me is that I was not feeling or seeing anything, that's why I perked up the routine. Why did you go up in dosage if you were feeling something?

I'm getting the message from everybody (except Greenbush!) that I probably are stalled, and I feel so nauseous when I take all the 9 pills + the liquid herbs that I really want to cut down! How did you do it? Slowly or right away?

Isn't the routines page this page? I can't find the Wahaika explanation and I'd love to see it!

[buffy]

Elusia,

Wahaika's explanation is in his wife's routine, here: www.beboard.proboards23.com/index.cgi?board=Routines&action=display&thread=1074738958

[elusia]

Thanks, Buffy! And Wahaika, reading the things you've written is soo informative!! I just wish I had more time to read more what you and the other wonderful and generous people have shared on this site! But between 3 kids and a husband who thinks I'm crazy with this "nonsense" NBE idea it's tricky. I did find DMSO drops and I'm going to order, as well as l-tyrosine.

[zanyzara]

elusia said:

ZZ,
congratulations on your progress! I think one difference between you and me is that I was not feeling or seeing anything, that's why I perked up the routine. Why did you go up in dosage if you were feeling something?

I'm getting the message from everybody (except Greenbush!) that I probably are stalled, and I feel so nauseous when I take all the 9 pills + the liquid herbs that I really want to cut down! How did you do it? Slowly or right away?

Isn't the routines page this page? I can't find the Wahaika explanation and I'd love to see it!

Well even though it 1/2 an inch it doesn't really seem I've grown at all. I must have of grown on the bottoms and sides.

I do not have sharp pains and only tenderness when i pressed my breast, I got this the 2nd day so I didn't really think it was NBE and thought it was too soon to see any thing. Also I was on about 1 or 2 capsules of just fenugreek/fennel, so I thought this can't be NBE. It was only when I stopped and started again that I thought it must be NBE.

But you do not have to have pains to grow though, I still think your dose is too much for your size. If your coming up to your break (you do take breaks?)I would stop all herbs and would do a liver cleanse, then commence again.

Look at the link buffy posted, Wahaika has a ramp up table, follow this. It takes about 8 weeks to get to the dose you are on.

As you have been on BE since Sep, you should be due for a weeks break. This is a good time to clean your system and reevaluate your regime.

ZZ

[Wahaika]

Elusia,

Just wanted to answer the question above about licorice and cayenne pepper (BTW, Greenbush must not understand stalling, they are totally wrong in what they told you.)

Mainly, the other things listed that are considered estrogenic (Fenugreek, Fennel, Hops, Red Clover {RC is also a progesterone blocker}) already have a good track record as bobby batter ingredients. I have not seen anyone grow using licorice or cayenne pepper externally and Lucy did not use those anyway. Licorice also has a reputation for raising blood pressure. I think that if it gets into the blood stream transdermally then it could have the same effect if you are one of those that respond that way to it. That's why I don't recommend those.

Wahaika

[elusia]

Quick update:

I took a break around Dec. 1. I was feeling so "sick of" taking all those pills that I literally started feeling nauseous. All I did in the break was eating 1 Bladderwreck (kelp) pill a day and listen to the Body Contouring Programme twice a day. Nothing is happening.

Now I'm trying dowsing, but there are so many things to check for and my time alone is very limited so I'll post back when I have a list of what I'll use based on the dowsing... Happy New Growing Year everybody!!

[elusia]

Routine from April 1 2006

Mirifem cream massaged twice daily
Kelp
L-tyrosine
Flax seed oil


I don't think anything is happening, perhaps a slight firming on the right breast - I guess I'll keep trying for another 1 or 2 months to be sure before I figure something else. I do 20 minutes of belly centered pilates 20 min 3 times / week do deal with my stretched out baby belly and 20 min 3 times / week tai chi to deal with stress...I also started doing lpg 1-2 times a week to help firm up the rest of the body.

I did try to dowse, but kept on getting different results all the time. I still have a lot of Greenbush herbs at home, maybe I should have it a second go but much slower than what Greenbush / F2F recommended!