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Post by fawnmarie on Nov 16, 2004 9:39:32 GMT -5
"An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, and the whole world will be blind and toothless."
Tevye Fiddler on the Roof
This is my last comment on this thread.
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Post by Ruderico on Nov 16, 2004 10:12:41 GMT -5
That's right Fawn!! I remember that quote from that death row movie "The Life of David Gayle" (good movie btw). Already thought it was funny when it heard it back then. ;D
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Post by Wahaika on Nov 17, 2004 0:19:40 GMT -5
Ruderico, RE: Replies 15, 16 (and a few others) TaxesJane hit the nail on the head on taxes. So I won't say much more about taxes other than the purpose of the U.S. government is not to take care of the poor. It is to liberate the poor to take care of themselves by protecting their rights and freedom. No civilization ever taxed themselves into prosperity. The personal income tax system is part of a scheme by Karl Marx in the Manifesto of the Communist Party. This made our system "unfair" and caused the designed contention between the "haves" and the "have nots." Instead of people gravitating to churches and other organizations designed to fill their need, they gravitate to the government. Those who would otherwise be willing to give, get the money confiscated instead. This corrupt practice feeds upon itself because politicians are engaged in a constant popularity contest to get reelected and there is a vast number of people who want to be taken care of rather than taking responsibility for themselves. The more fires a politician can set, the more of a hero he can appear when he puts them out. Should there be some kind of safety net? Sure, but it shouldn't be a career and it should come from family, church, and community, not the federal government. Republic vs. DemocracyDemocratic Republic? Not exactly. You are probably referring to the hybrid term Representative Democracy. This is a well used term but is somewhat of a misnomer. You can read about the difference between a Republic and a Democracy by one of the founders of our country who played a big part in authoring our Constitution here: www.constitution.org/fed/federa10.htm Skip down to the paragraph that starts " From this view of the subject it may be concluded that a pure democracy, " and read to the end. The definition takes place in that paragraph and the following three paragraphs. I might point out that the purpose of our form of government is to represent the people as if they were making the decision themselves, not to vote based on some poll or survey or popular opinion. It is important to listen to the constituency as a check and balance, but the reason people are elected in a Republic is to use their own judgement. Officials take office and swear an oath to uphold the Constitution, not to uphold the wants and desires of those who elected them to office. IraqYour position on Iraq is a PERFECT example of why democracies fail. The masses can be swayed by a biased media giving out only one side of the story as our liberal news media does. Iraq was a threat to the United states and that is why it was attacked. WMD (which are probably in Syria) were never the reason for going to war. May I suggest you read the 911 Commission Report for more reliable information than wherever you are getting your information now. Especially if they are telling you that Bush thinks he is some kind of prophet. If he ever really made a statement like that, the press would destroy him with it. www.gpoaccess.gov/911/www.9-11commission.gov/report/index.htmIf Bush had something to hide, why would he have published this? www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/10/20041007-6.html Call it what you will. It looks like accountability to me. Powell, Rice, and "The Handmaid's Tale"I also hate to see Colin Powell leave, but don't get too excited. He said he was only going to be in for one term from the beginning. Who does Bush appoint? Condoleeza Rice . Since a woman has been appointed to be the Secretary of State, it appears that any fears due to stories like "the Handmaid's Tale" are unjustified for at least four more years. Death PenaltyThe reason for the death penalty is not to relieve prison overcrowding or to cut costs or to be mean or to get even. It is to measure out justice. Plain and simple. Is being "just" a value in the Netherlands? BTW, it is biblical, not from the mosaic law which was fulfilled, but is was commanded from the beginning. See Genisis 9:6; "Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man." Gay Marriage (Since you brought it up) The homosexual lifestyle is wrong. Gays want to teach our children that it is not wrong. There are gay groups who target children. Justifying their existence in any way is wrong. I don't want my children to be taught that being a homosexual is normal. Now, here's a question or two for you. Why do gays think that they have to be married? Can't they just be committed to their partners like before and not make such a big deal about it? Why don't they just use their own ministers and perform the ceremonies in private? Why are they using marriage to get in everyones face? Why now? These are questions that you cannot answer because your country has already given in. Maybe that's why you were placed in that country, because you think the same way and are more comfortable there. Maybe you don't mind if your children grow up to be gay. That's your choice. Don't look down your nose at us because we oppose it. Evil should not be tolerated. Is there a right to be gay? Where do rights come from? What is a right? How does it differ from freedom? There is no right to be gay. That is what this is all about. It is political. It involves using government to enforce their views on everyone else. You might think about that for a while before giving another knee jerk reaction. It is a longer discussion. Wahaika
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Post by fawnmarie on Nov 17, 2004 8:09:04 GMT -5
Jesus Christ on Taxes:
Matthew 22: 16 And they sent out unto him their disciples with the Herodians, saying, Master, we know that thou art true, and teachest the way of God in truth, neither carest thou for any man: for thou regardest not the person of men.
17 Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not?
18 But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites?
19 Shew me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny.
20 And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription?
21 They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.
22 When they had heard these words, they marvelled, and left him, and went their way.
Mark 12 14 And when they were come, they say unto him, Master, we know that thou art true, and carest for no man: for thou regardest not the person of men, but teachest the way of God in truth: Is it lawful to give tribute to Caesar, or not?
15 Shall we give, or shall we not give? But he, knowing their hypocrisy, said unto them, Why tempt ye me? bring me a penny, that I may see it.
16 And they brought it. And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription? And they said unto him, Caesar's.
17 And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him.
Jesus Christ on the Dealth Penalty:
Mathew 5:
38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.
41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Fawn
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Post by Wahaika on Nov 17, 2004 10:02:22 GMT -5
Fawn brings up some very good scriptures here.
BTW, when it comes to religious conversation, just understand that I am not imposing my views on anyone. True, I am speaking as if "that's the way it is." And for me, that's the way it is. Please don't take offense. None is intended.
Some taxation is necessary, and Constitutional. But if the government were to take the position that all money belongs to Caesar then there are going to be problems with individuals paying tithing, giving to the poor, paying for their food and shelter, etc. If the government owns all money then there is no freedom. Freedom is inversely purportional to taxation.
Luckily we are a "government of the people, by the people, and for the people" as Abraham Lincoln said.
I share Fawn's belief that we should forgive each other.
But that is a different subject than ultimate forgiveness of sin, which we do not have the power to do. It is also a different subject from the death penalty, which is the government upholding justice. Otherwise, the same person speaking in Genesis chapter 9 would conflict with Himself in Matthew chapter 5. It is the same person is speaking in both places, remember?
Unfortunately, there is a lot of evil in the world just waiting to trample/eliminate the good and the innocent. There are misunderstandings and revenge and all kinds of other undesirable things that go on. Can you imagine a world where there was no mediation between somone accused of a crime and a victim? It would be uncivilized chaos. Should we return to the dark ages?
Wahaika
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Post by Wenonae on Nov 17, 2004 12:18:15 GMT -5
Luckily we are a "government of the people, by the people, and for the people" as Abraham Lincoln said. I actually think that IS part of the problem. When PEOPLE are not centered or grounded, they easily fall suseptible to wordly means, and become corrupt, cycnical, less tolerate, greedy, and all negatively associated things. As compared to when they are 'LED', even the Seas part for them, and it is apparent for all to see. Unfortunately, there is a lot of evil in the world just waiting to trample/eliminate the good and the innocent. There are misunderstandings and revenge and all kinds of other undesirable things that go on. Can you imagine a world where there was no mediation between somone accused of a crime and a victim? It would be uncivilized chaos. Should we return to the dark ages? Wahaika A world with no 'Light' (real God-provided direction) IS one of Darkness. At the rate we're going where just because someone utters the word 'God' out of their lips, and masses fall for it is setting a course for utter blindness. Ole G.W.'s decisions are less than that for the all people's well-being vs. for his own trophy hall. Not only that, he has to 'state' that he's led by God vs. it being shown in his actions, which are far less delibrate, and very lacking in vision. G.W's no Joseph Stalin, but still, thanks be to GOD that there is a TWO term limit!
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LadyR
Junior Member
Posts: 80
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Post by LadyR on Nov 17, 2004 14:26:45 GMT -5
I didn't vote for Bush or Kerry. It went against my better judgment to vote for the lesser of the two evils. Most of the people that I've talked to didn't vote for Bush because they thought he would be a great president, but because they were afraid of another Democrat president like Clinton. This much I can understand. After all, he put the security of the country at risk. Remember Chinagate? This man raped several women while in office as governor and president and then had his cronies in the IRS threaten them and their families so that they would not press charges against him. He and Hillary turned the White House into some kind of money making rooming house and then tried to walk away with the furnishings when his term was over. What class! He threatened to veto several much needed House Appropriation funds unless he be allowed to sneak some major amnesties for illegal alliens into the package. He ordered the secretary of the INS to forgo the required background checks on thousands and thousands of illegal alliens in order to rush their citizenships through just to hopefully gain additional votes in the 96 elections. The result--countless numbers of criminals and terrorists among us. A couple of administration members mysteriously turned up dead. Do you remember all of these things? If not it's probably because the biased, liberal media does their best to keep these things hushed up. And Hillary stood by her man through it all. Hillary...oh yes...remember Whitewater and Filegate? And she is the hope for our future? I would love to see a woman become president but she would have to be an honest, law abiding, respectable woman. Hillary doesn't qualify.
I was very much against invading Iraq when almost everyone around me was saying "Oh, we have to go in there and get Sadam and get those terrorists". Even Kerry voted for the $87 billion. (but then that was before he voted against it) Kerry said he would have our men out of there in six months. Would he just let the government crumble and walk away?
I too would like to know what Bush said or did to make him a religious fanatic. Actually I think it's nice that he acknowledges God and his religion. Our country, our society and constitution are all based on Christian/Judeo principals. That's the way it is and there's nothing wrong with that.
Yet, these are some of the reasons why I think so many people were gun shy of Kerry and another Democrat president. I think that many people have come to associate the actions of the Clinton's, as well as things like the ACLU, the liberal media, the liberal supreme court judges who are willing to destroy the institution of marriage, with the Democrat party. It's like all of what we hold dear is being chipped away at. We can't pray in school, they don't want us to say "one nation under God" Jeez, they tore apart one of the news anchormen for wearing a U.S. flag pin after 9/11! It's just all gone a bit too far. We all have the right to choose to not pray, to not wave our flag, to not speak the words "one nation under God". Isn't that enough?
We have a deeply divided country and I think that the basis of this division has a lot to do with morals and values and what many people perceive to be the lack of.
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Venus
Junior Member
Posts: 99
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Post by Venus on Nov 18, 2004 9:33:51 GMT -5
Being that some are quoting scriptures, I thought I'd share some that I find very interesting on this topic. Please don't take it the wrong way, I am not pushing my beliefs on anyone, just sharing some thoughts.
Eccl. 8:9 - "Man has dominated man to his injury."
Jer. 10:23 - "To earthling man his way does not belong. It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step."
2 Tim. 3:1-4 - "In the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here. For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money,...not open to any agreement,...without self-control...puffed up with pride, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God."
Dan. 2:44 - "In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never ne brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put on end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite."
Venus
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Post by Ruderico on Nov 22, 2004 14:03:47 GMT -5
Okay, I guess I can go on forever debating all these issues, but I guess it has no use. I found the people that voted on Bush and I see why we will never share the same views. (I find executing death penalties is what makes you go back to the dark ages, and I don't agree with you that people from the old testament have the same message as Jesus did - Jesus' mission was to bring remission of people's sins). Point is, we differ to much on religion, foreign policy and domestic issues. Hopefully our statesmen will find a way to work some things out. Wahaika: This is on your own link:www.9-11commission.gov/report/index.htm'Responding to a presidential tasking, Clarke's office sent a memo to Rice on September 18, titled "Survey of Intelligence Information on Any Iraq Involvement in the September 11 Attacks." Rice's chief staffer on Afghanistan, Zalmay Khalilzad, concurred in its conclusion that only some anecdotal evidence linked Iraq to al Qaeda. The memo found no "compelling case" that Iraq had either planned or perpetrated the attacks. It passed along a few foreign intelligence reports, including the Czech report alleging an April 2001 Prague meeting between Atta and an Iraqi intelligence officer (discussed in chapter 7) and a Polish report that personnel at the headquarters of Iraqi intelligence in Baghdad were told before September 11 to go on the streets to gauge crowd reaction to an unspecified event. Arguing that the case for links between Iraq and al Qaeda was weak, the memo pointed out that Bin Ladin resented the secularism of Saddam Hussein's regime. Finally, the memo said, there was no confirmed reporting on Saddam cooperating with Bin Ladin on unconventional weapons.62' ... 'On September 20, President Bush met with British Prime Minister Tony Blair, and the two leaders discussed the global conflict ahead. When Blair asked about Iraq, the President replied that Iraq was not the immediate problem. Some members of his administration, he commented, had expressed a different view, but he was the one responsible for making the decisions.78' ==>Sounds like it was a mistake after all, even conservative sources admit it. BTW: if you think liberal people are biased because of liberal media, maybe you should consider yourself biased too, for reading conservative media! I found these allegations of just being biased rather insulting, because I read aknowledged, professional newspapers, which cannot just 'make things up' without distroying their reputation, and I accually read very conservative newpapers too!! (=The kind of newspapers that interview clergymen on their opinion about homosexuality and abortion and pays more attention to religious matters in general) Just to be sure I don't miss out on things. I'm an International Relations student you know, I need to stick to the facts. In good newspapers only the opinion pages reveil the tendacy of the newspaper, and when I read them, I'm always aware of the 'who says what and why'. Maybe that sources with a low reputation can twist facts and leave important things out, but reputable media can't.
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Post by lilsx1 on Dec 23, 2004 19:22:36 GMT -5
Ruderico - Not ALL Americans share the "American" viewpoints. You seem to be grouping every one of us together as if we all agree. In general I would say (as an American) that we are the modern day Sodom and Gomorrah (sp?). But I also believe that the bible fortells certain events and if Bush had to be re-elected for such prophecies to fulfilled I would rather have that than to have it be peaceful and with life forever under man made Governments. There are also lots of good people here in America with good hearts and ideas and ways of life. Not all of us are under your classification. And actually most people here that I talked to in my town wanted Kerry. I personally don't vote as I do not believe in men running the country. I vote for God and I know no matter what happens His will will be done. The death penalty is a good idea for pedophiles with definite evidence against them and their admission of guilt. I only feel that way because I have a child and children are the only people, well aside from disabled or whatever, that can not defend themselves and it just makes me that sick. So I wouldn't care if a pedophile died. At the same time only God can judge so I guess the death penalty in general is wrong. Anyway I guess I feel sad that although I agree and see the same things you do in most Americans, some of us are ashamed for the country. There are good things here too though and I think it is that way everywhere. Good and bad.
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Post by Ruderico on Dec 24, 2004 18:21:19 GMT -5
I know! And I'm very happy for it as well... It would be too depressing if whole America gone entirelly mad. I really liked Eminem's song too ('Mosh'), so it's not that I don't like Americans anylonger! I guess I just don't get along with Republicans that well...
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Post by Wahaika on Mar 14, 2005 23:07:57 GMT -5
...the saga continues... (one of many things to happen since the latest post)...
Looting at Weapons Plants Was Systematic, Iraqi Says
By JAMES GLANZ and WILLIAM J. BROAD
Published: March 13, 2005
BAGHDAD, Iraq, March 12 - In the weeks after Baghdad fell in April 2003, looters systematically dismantled and removed tons of machinery from Saddam Hussein's most important weapons installations, including some with high-precision equipment capable of making parts for nuclear arms, a senior Iraqi official said this week in the government's first extensive comments on the looting. www.nytimes.com/2005/03/13/international/middleeast/13loot.html
www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A30130-2005Mar12.html?sub=AR
My bet is that the equipment/WMD capability has been moved to Syria.
Saddam's $2m offer to WMD inspector
By Francis Harris in Washington
"Saddam Hussein's regime offered a $2 million (£1.4 million) bribe to the United Nations' chief weapons inspector to doctor his reports on the search for weapons of mass destruction." www.telegraph.co.uk/core/Content/displayPrintable.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/03/12/wsaddam12.xml&site=5
If there are no WMD's, why bribe?
Wahaika
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Post by dot368 on May 11, 2005 0:55:05 GMT -5
I am new to this board and I did not realize what dowsing was until my husband told me. I do not agree with it, But I am here to find out what herbs could help grow bigger breast. I am a christian and go by his commands. I am only human and I do sin but thats why I thank God for Jesus. It does make me mad when someone talks down about christians and It does make me mad when christians act like there better then every one else and yes Jessus did dine with sinners but he told them how they can be saved. He did not come here for the good he came for the bad so they too could be saved. I too voted for Bush. God also lead people to war. What Bush did was free alot of people in Iraq. Is that what It is all about freedom for all. My husband is in the military and he tells me what really goes on that the media does not let you know.They talk about all the bad stuff but never the good stuff. A lot of people hold on to the bad but forget the good. I try not to judge but I never except what is wrong.
Dot
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Post by PepeLePewtheDivine on May 11, 2005 1:35:16 GMT -5
Gay Marriage (Since you brought it up) The homosexual lifestyle is wrong. Gays want to teach our children that it is not wrong. There are gay groups who target children. Justifying their existence in any way is wrong. I don't want my children to be taught that being a homosexual is normal.
Now, here's a question or two for you. Why do gays think that they have to be married? Can't they just be committed to their partners like before and not make such a big deal about it? Why don't they just use their own ministers and perform the ceremonies in private? Why are they using marriage to get in everyones face? Why now?
These are questions that you cannot answer because your country has already given in. Maybe that's why you were placed in that country, because you think the same way and are more comfortable there. Maybe you don't mind if your children grow up to be gay. That's your choice. Don't look down your nose at us because we oppose it. Evil should not be tolerated.
Is there a right to be gay? Where do rights come from? What is a right? How does it differ from freedom?
There is no right to be gay. That is what this is all about. It is political. It involves using government to enforce their views on everyone else. You might think about that for a while before giving another knee jerk reaction. It is a longer discussion.
Homosexuality is not about lifestyle - its about sexual orientation. "There is no right to be gay" is an absurd statement, as if the way a persons's sexuality is about politics.
As outraged as I am by such blatent homophobia I am even more disturbed at the cold heartedness of your statments. I think the need is greater than ever for us to take the focus off of conflict and be about resolutions.
Love Pepe.
ps. excuse me if this is not very eloquently written, im very tired, will edit tommorow. Wahaika[/quote]
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Post by fawnmarie on May 11, 2005 9:25:01 GMT -5
Yeah, this whole "homophobia" stuff is just ridiculous!
The religious right talks about the "Gay Agenda" as if it were different than the "Heterosexual Agenda" and ya know what - is the same d**ned agenda! Be happy, be free, be prosperous, do good, take care of one's loved ones, preserve one's personal rights and dignity, pass on one's wisdom to following generations.
Being "gay" is not a matter of choice, it's a biological condition over which one has no control. You may as well tell people with congenital handicaps that they can't marry. It's really ugly when people are bigoted against others because of a physical difference - and there are some ugly names for it.
So being homosexual isn't "normal' - and by that we mean that most people aren't homosexual. Most people don't have cerebral palsy either. Do you teach your kids to throw rotten vegetables at people in wheelchairs?
For that matter, having green eyes is pretty "abnormal" too, should people with green eyes be restricted from enjoying their personal rights and freedoms? Or redheads, or those with sickle cell anemia, or those with AB negative blood?
Should we just shoot them all, or herd them into camps to die off, so the right wing religious nut jobs can go to hell on their own terms?
I am a military veteran of several wars and campaigns - and I am an individual that volunteered and gave 8 years of my youth to protect my fellow citizens rights and freedoms - even those of right wing religious nutjobs. Ironically, I gave up MY personal rights and freedoms - because when you enlist or are commissioned - you put aside your personal rights to civil protection of the courts and your personal freedoms of person) - what I swore to protect is my fellow citizens rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Their right to be free of unreasonable search and seizure, their right to worship or NOT worship in their own way. Their RIGHT - to be who they are without persecution and with EQUAL liberties before the law.
This means the right to marry. The right to have families and have their benefits and goods inherited by those families. Their right to protect and care for their loved ones. WHATEVER the gender of those loved ones.
Deep down, I think this rampant homophobia is a result of jealousy. I think a lot of mainstream heterosexuals think that the homosexual lifestyle is a lot more fun, ore more interesting, or something, so they want to hold out on granting them the right to marry.
Homosexuality may not be "normal" - in that it is not the AVERAGE sexual orientation, but none-the-less it is NATURAL. It's a natural evolutionary response to over population, and may be a natural evolutionary response as a society and how we function. We used to be small-pack animals and thats how we survive - in small packs (families, tribes). As our culture grows more complicated, and humans as a species require less actual physical changes to survive, it may be that we need more "cultural" changes. After all, we evolved into monogomous creatures when we developed agriculture, when before we were not so hung up on paternity. We developed the concept of paternity when land became a matter of property, and surviving actually took a man and a woman to work together to work a farm (where as hunting/gathering is more of a catch as catch can lifestyle).
Not we may need to develop into a different society, as the need to stay mentally and emotionally "fit" is needed to survive. We may need to develop even larger "family groups" to function and grow, and in some ways, homosexuals have resources they can provide to society that heterosexuals usually don't. They are often the keepers of our culture, because young heterosexuals with families don't have the time and money to support the arts. Sure, when we're 50 and the kids go to college, we may have time and money to go to the theatre, watch something NOT animated on TV, buy a well-designed wardrobe, get some decent art on the walls, go to that 5 star restaurant. The homosexual community is the keeper of our culture while we are busy raising kids. Good for them! I want to see a good Broadway show and upgrade my couture when the kids finally move out!
But what it really comes down to is that it is completely unethical and certainly unconstitutional to deny civil liberties and rights to citizens because of a physical difference. And homosexuality is a biological difference, it's not a lifestyle and not a choice.
My 2 cents Fawn
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