Wahaika's dowsing comments

[Wenonae]

Wahaika said:

Hi missy!

Word tricks and word games? I thought it was all pretty obvious, hence the reactions, and I meant every word. It was all from the heart.

I would like you to please tell me anywhere I called anyone an idiot. On the other hand, idiots are as idiots do. Does one become an idiot by engaging in idiocy?

>>"Why is it that you, a man, is still posting on here again? Wonder what your 'wife' thinks about all your concern about a method other 'grown' women are deciding to use to grow their own breasts?"

OK, now you're an idiot.

The last time another idiot posted similar words, my wife convinced me to attempt taking the high road and cut the conversation (venomous argument) off. I think now that it was a big mistake, and one I intend to address as soon as the thread is unlocked. I should have at least answered the unanswered questions. Until then, I think it would be a good idea to address this issue here and now. (BTW, thank you to those of you who wrote to me at my hotmail address in support. It is very much appreciated!).

1. What you (plural) did is known as an ad hominem argument. The subject of the thread is dowsing, or in this case, the obvious idiocy of it. You are addressing the characteristics (even if they are imaginary) of your opponent. Engaging in this type of thing only serves to deceive readers who agree with the sidetrack. The subject at hand gets lost in an appeal to emotions. In this case, a situation which admittedly looks bad regardless of the accusations.

I know that there are some on the board who do not know what the term ad hominem means. If I were to be drawn into the tangent, I might respond like this:

"What does your husband think of you putting up pictures of your boobs where you KNOW another man (actually there are two of us) is lurking about and will surely see them. That doesn't even take non board members into account who are innocently surfing a site that says at the bottom of each page that there are no pics to worry about (Item 3). You didn't even put them on a Yahoo site so they could be avoided. You gave no choice in the matter. We are reading along and there they are! I thought that this type of exabitionism (my wife's word) was not allowed on the site."

However, I'm not going to engage in that kind of rhetoric. Instead, I will simply make you aware of the tactic and give some sites with definitions:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem#Ad_hominem_abusive

dictionary.reference.com/search?q=ad%20hominem

www.intrepidsoftware.com/fallacy/attack.php

www2.sjsu.edu/depts/itl/graphics/adhom/adhom.html

www.bartleby.com/61/71/A0087100.html

2. My personal life and motivations are none of your business. Any allegations of what is in my mind and heart are completely unknown to you or you wouldn't make the accusation. I make no claims to perfection. I am a male and subject to testosterone like the rest of us. I am not on this board for any immoral reasons or purposes. I do not find any pictures to be in poor taste. Again, if I were after some kind of peep show, there are other places to go and spend my time, mind, and money on if I wanted to waste my life. As for your accusation, here is a quote written by my wife which I think will answer your question.

"Being analytical, like my husband, I do not understand the stupidity of some women who are gullible enough to fall into the touchy feely methods of dowsing. To put dowsing up as a staple of NBE is wrong, especially for those just starting out. One should read the Herbs page first followed by the Routines page and then the Medical Related Research page. They need to choose and follow an established routine such as Pammy's, which I have found to be is the most logical and precise. I too have had sucess with her routine which, by the way, is the Greenbush routine with some additions. Once a routine has been established by those beginning NBE, then and only then should they do any tweaking. Dowsing is very subjective and will lead to failure and frustration by those just beginning NBE.

As for my husband, being on a BE board and responding to questions and making observations, I have no patience for whiny women and their gullibility. If one approaches NBE scientifically and had success, wouldn't they want to share it with everyone to help them avoid the pitfalls of NBE? Wasn't this the premise of the BEBoard? My time is valuable to me, I view certain threads that he has filtered through and found to be useful. I don't write because I would be offending all of you every time I wrote. My husband is much kinder and has more tact than I do. "

Further, she has spoken at length with Mominator (Yahoo Messenger) on a couple of occasions. It took her a long time to allow me to even post her routine and she will never post any pictures. We read a lot of stuff together and have gone through this entire experience together, and continue to in spite of petty remarks and ignorant opinions. If that is beyond your understanding or belief, then it certainly sheds light on the dysfunctional view of men that I have noticed permeating the board from time to time. What a pitty!

BTW, This is the second attempt to get me to leave the board through an ad hominem attack. May I be so bold to ask why you don't think husbands have an interest in this subject? DUH!

>>"Dowsers are proving and having THE highest success rate for NBE on this board(prolly many other)s...much more than the 'guessers'. If it weren't working, then I could understand your position. All the dowsers have done from day 1 is prove that this method works"

FALSE. If you think that the few of you who have logged success with dowsing is so great, then you have obviously not visted the Greenbush site lately. Joel (another male by the way) has so many success stories that he has to catagorize them on several pages. www.greenbush.net/testimonials.html

No, all you are doing is proving that cycling works - a subject we have already discussed from time to time and something that I have found more research on, which I will post someday when I think you're genuinely interested.

Wahaika

I know it's a lost cause trying to reason with you in regards to how condescending you are in your comments about dowsing and the ladies using this method, but I just thought I'd place my 'gripe' for the record in the appropriate location, vs. 'trashing' someone else's query, which you never even answered by the way.

First, if the fire's too hot, get out the kitchen. You continually rant about how the "scientific" approach is much 'safer' to communicate to someone new to the board. The fact of the matter is, you're so blinded with hatred, that something you can't reason is actually working, that you use words such as 'ad hominem attack' to say that it's all just outta the blue for the comments you've received back. I'll bet I can find more ladies to post that it's weird to have a guy so involved in a woman's issue, than find posts from ladies saying it's normal what you do. I know if I care about something, then I find out my own info vs. having someone else champion it, ESPECIALLY about as sensitive an issue as my boobs, but maybe that's just me.

If you HAD a logical response (like you'd had in previous non-dowsing discussions), then there would be no 'attacks'. However, you gone the gamut of using 'God', to using Latin, to downright insulting people to try to get them to 'see' your view. Point being, your view isn't a vision at all. A vision is something that 'sheds light' on something. Actually, every time you post about it, you're actually advertising for dowsing and getting more interested in learning about what's got this guy so fired up. So, I'll say thanks for that.

As far as your "support", I DARE you to start your own site with all your supporters with your ‘cycling method’. There’s no need for me to change to something that’s unproven and prolly won’t work, especially when I’m getting results. So, duh! to that. I'll bet you anything, if you take every single link and thread you've contributed as the 'sole' advice, your stats will be TERrible, because most don't need JUST the herbs that Pammy took for growth to respond in a reasonable timeframe. Those seem to be the few herbs you ever talk about or can understand. As far as talking about Joel's success: 1.) he's a commercial site and encounters a LOT more ladies. 2.) Even HE wouldn't tout 100% success rate, probably far from it. As far as the 'few' successes you'd like to call paltry for numbers, the dowsing stats still blow away ANY others. The dowsers (unlike Joel) don’t have reports of getting someone ill, have reports of improved health and energy, and excitement for an answer to a problem, and most of all GROWTH. Let this ProB site be available to a real search engine, and I'd BANK on us STILL holding those numbers. At the 'Wahaika site', you'll just wind up another worn-out Bob. Is that who you aspire to be? Oh, but wait! you can't even have that title. Your wife, due to your efforts, didn't grow and keep her boobs.

Good luck with your blind-vision, scientific approach.

[lilsx1]

WOW
All I can say is what is going on?! I haven't been to this section and I TOTALLY disagree with Wahaika. I tried a few different methods of BE and the one that has actually given me steady results has been the dowsing done by myself and one other person to verify that I did it correctly. We BOTH came up with the same routine and I don't agree that it is jsut conicidence.
All I can say is that I feel this man is completely ignorant to post that something is "Dumbo's magic feather" just because it is his opinion. Why would someone even continue to come here when so many comments directed at him insinuate that we are tired and bored *yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawn* with his not so amusing antics. So to all the other GIRLS out there and those of you doing dowsing or wanting to try it out - go for it - it's working for too many of us GIRLS for it not to be worth checking out. So on the ignorant and to all you who need encouragement to try something for yourselves that works. US GIRLS STICK TOGETHER.

[barbara392639]

Wahaika,
Stargirl asked a simple question about the BCP and herbs.
I answered her,because I knew Wen is taking BCP, herbs, and is dowsing and getting results.
So why did you have to be so rude and insult dowsing?
You did not answer her question.
Is your wife on the BCP and taking herbs for NBE?

As for Joel, I used Greenbush 4 years ago and followed his advice and ended up with endometriosis.

Unfortunately, we did not have a great board like this with information. Later I did stumble on Mountaintop herbs board, were Pammy also started.

[fawnmarie]

Just popping in, and sorry to see THIS old subject coming up!

Sheesh!

First of all - there really IS no "tried and true" method of NBE, because if you brought ANY of this stuff to a regular medical professional, they would probably laugh in your face. So, promoting any routine, Pammy's or otherwise as some kind "traditional" or scientific method really isn't a valid argument. Most AMA types would tell you to quit wasting your money and "get implants or get over it".

So, the "craziness" of dowsing is no more or less crazy than NBE of any kind.

And Wahaika - just between you and me, bro, sorry about the sexism, but this really IS a "women's forum" and you really are going to be subject to suspicion by your presence here. Don't take it personally, but it does feel like an invasion of our privacy.

And to be perfectly honest with you, I'm sure many of us are wondering why you ARE here if your wife is not a full participant. On the other foot, if I were to start hanging out on steroid forums because I wished my husband had more muscle, I'm sure he'd be hurt, and look suspiciously at anything I gave him to eat or drink. Women are sensitive about their breast size - hence the existance of this board. Most of us would be upset if our husbands went behind our backs digging up info on pills and drugs to make ours bigger without our participation. We would either think he's "peeping" or finding us inadequate. We would NOT appreciate it at all.

So - yes - many of us find your regular participation suspicious because we ARE women, and most of us know how a woman would react to their husband doing the same.

We would be less concerned if you were trying to grow them yourself.

I think most of us have given you and your motives the benefit of the doubt. But most women I know do not want or appreciate advice from men about breast size, menstruation, childbirth, abortion, menopause, or any other subject on which they have no or could have absolutely NO personal experience or perspective.

Most of us barely trust our male gynecologists.

So - sexism is alive and well. And it's just something we all need to deal with. (Women still get it from men, too - PLENTY.) And there probably is some good reason for it.

But, you're really the one that gets to decide here 1) stop making comments about the dowsing. 2) deal with the abuse when you DO make comments or 3) just stop coming here.

There's really no guarantee your feelings aren't going to get stomped on. That's just life in the "Lady's Room". So, pick a solution, but quit pretending to being surprised when there's an uproar. Freedom of speach also comes with responsibility for the consequences of that speach.

And so far - really NO ONE has made fun of your religious beliefs (as you claim). We have only asked you stop pushing them into other's faces or making them an argument for scientific discourse.


Fawn

[warriorqueen]

I've just seen this thread and totally agree with Fawn. Let's get on with what we're here for - helping each other on our NBE quest. As far as I am concerned, and I've tried a number of routines in the last 3 (nearly 4 years) - some of which had seemed to be very succesful for others - I can say from experience that they didn't work very well for me. I took Wonderbreast for 6 months and had some growth (following the instructions religiously), had a 3 months break, then took BO faithfully for 12 months solid and had absolutely nothing. I then decided on a herbal routine and used HBA products for 4 months, following their suggestions - some results but nothing much. I've also followed Pammy's routine to some, albeit little, effect. So after all those years - and pennies - I'm prepared to wave a feather around if there's a chance it might steer me through the quagmire of NBE pills and potions. I've been doing a Dumbo for a couple of months, and gosh, it looks like I'm actually sprouting wings and starting to fly. Maybe it's just me moving the feather around - my subconscious. I don't know, but I do know that my patience (and wallet) was wearing thin and there was little to show for it after trials and errors with various routines that were given enough time to prove themselves. Let's give this topic a rest - people do what they have to do, and that's it. I'll admit to not being very scientific, but gullible I'm not - after nearly 4 years, I was ready and willing to try something new. I respect a scientific approach and appreciate the data presented to the board. It's not the journey that matters, it's all about reaching the destination. Peace!

[fawnmarie]

On second thought - there are in fact, TWO approved and proven (and replicatible) non-surgical methods of BE.

1. Hypnosis
2. Brava

Brava has been tested and FDA approved for the purpose of breast enlargement. Most women find it UNcomfortable, time-consuming and expensive.

Hypnosis has been the subject of many clinical trials and shown to work. Results with hypnosis are regularly reported by legitimate psychiatrists and psychologists. Results are duplicatable time after time and give consistent results.

The fact is, the magic feather works better than the science, and even the scientists know it.

Fawn

[Wahaika]

OH, here you are!

I was wondering how WQ showed up as the last poster but didn't show up in the thread.

I hope you all feel better now. Since you are obviously addressing me in some of these posts, I'll write a reply. Been getting home late lately.

Filled with hate? Whew, isn't messaging a funny thing! It brings out the hate in some so they can impose it on others. Be back later. Meanwhile, if you think you can actually answer a question that is put to you, perhaps you can tell me what led you to believe that I'm full of hate. I can see that you are though, so it's easy to see how you read it into my message - because you are feeling it yourself. Whoa there nellie! Take a breather!

Yep, I knew it. You want to make this a Dowsing site. I wonder how Pammy would like the idea of her site being gradually hijacked?

Your ol pal,

Wahaika

[Wenonae]

Wahaika said:

Yep, I knew it. You want to make this a Dowsing site. I wonder how Pammy would like the idea of her site being gradually hijacked?
Wahaika

Dowsing has it's own discusssion folder. Last time I checked, all catagories remained as they have been. If u don't like seeing Newbees being 'informed'..start a gripe. Also, as you said, it's Pammy's site, which was started as a women's discussion forum about how to grow THEIR breasts.

If you're so concerned about the trial and error method, why not experiment on yourself some, prove "consistent" results, then share? Don't put your poor wife's through any more of ur your mad scientist regimes....assuming she's a knowing participant. So far ur help has been 'deflating' in more ways than one.

Wahaika said:

Let's here it for "trial and error"! Thomas Edison, the Wright brothers, and Stephen Hawking would sure be proud!

Doubt these guys would be worried about "women's" concerns

[barbara392639]

Wahaika
If your wife is growing so well, why isn't there an update in the routine section ?
And why have you never listed her stats?

[Wahaika]

barbara392639 said:

If your wife is growing so well, why isn't there an update in the routine section ?
And why have you never listed her stats?

Now THAT is a good question! I guess it just never came up. Good point though.

I'll talk it over with her and get back to you. I've posted this information in past messages, with her permission, but never in the appropriate sections.

My hat's off to you. Good point!

Wahaika

[barbara392639]

Wahaika,
It was nice for your wife to post her stats.
Sorry to hear she had medical problems and hope she is doing well now.
7 kids , wow you two have been busy ;D.

[Wahaika]

--------
Note: This entire thread is a continuation of:

Need Help!! Please Read
beboard.proboards107.com/index.cgi?board=Newbees&action=display&thread=1088125669

...which is in the newbies section of the board.

< Dumbo's Magic Feather Explained - See Reply #7 >

---------


First, somewhere in here is a reference to hate. One problem with email and message boards is that people sometimes read their own emotion into a post rather than what is actually there. Hence the existence of various forms of sideline queues such as emoticons. For me, hate is reserved for people guilty of things far more than some sarcasm on a message board. You might want to lighten up. There is no hate on this end, and any severe extreme dislike is only for the moment, as I've been told that it will all blow over.

- - -On the other hand, I am dealing with women high on estrogenic substances. Or in your case, one suffering from withdrawals. (Just kidding, just kidding)

>>"...vs. 'trashing' someone else's query, which you never even answered by the way. "

I did not trash the query, I answered it. Those who diverted the subject from dowsing to my "condescending" attitude diverted the query. I did notice that no one disagreed with what I said, only in how I said it.

>>"First, if the fire's too hot, get out the kitchen. "

What are you referring to? I never said any fire was too hot. I did say that the double standard on this board has got to go. This is in reference to some people getting kicked for name calling and others not. Some people get away with extreme rudeness and others do not.

>>"You continually rant about how the "scientific" approach is much 'safer' to communicate to someone new to the board. "

Safer? I don't remember saying that one method was any safer than the other. What are you talking about? Did I say it wasn't working? If I did, I'll retract that now. You and a few others say it's working. Who am I to disagree with that? I just think it's a little silly to give an inanimate object credit for what the dowser themselves come up with through an Ideomotor Response - slight subcontious motor movements. All you are doing is proving that cycling works.

>>"If you HAD a logical response (like you'd had in previous non-dowsing discussions), then there would be no 'attacks'."

What do you find illogical? Dowsing has little to do with logic. If you want to have a logical discussion on dowsing, just let me know.

>>"The fact of the matter is, you're so blinded with hatred, that something you can't reason is actually working, that you use words such as 'ad hominem attack' to say that it's all just outta the blue for the comments you've received back. "

I clearly defined what an ad hominem attack is. You attacked the opponent rather than the issue and sidetracked the discussion. Whether you want to admit to it is up to you. I heard nothing on any inaccuracy on what I said, only in how I said it. You employed an ad hominem. If you can't own up to it then maybe you shouldn't be here.

>>"I'll bet I can find more ladies to post that it's weird to have a guy so involved in a woman's issue, than find posts from ladies saying it's normal what you do. I know if I care about something, then I find out my own info vs. having someone else champion it, ESPECIALLY about as sensitive an issue as my boobs, but maybe that's just me. "

Whether it's just you or every women on the board is completely irrelevant. Maybe in your house it is a women's issue. In mine it is a husband and wife issue. Perhaps you have not looked at it that way before. That's the way it is over here. Pammy has not defined this board as a women's board. In fact, I was under the opinion that she was in favor of as many perspectives and diverse information as possible.

Breast Enlargement is no more a woman's issue than childbirth is.

>>"However, you gone the gamut of using 'God', to using Latin, to downright insulting people to try to get them to 'see' your view. Point being, your view isn't a vision at all. A vision is something that 'sheds light' on something. Actually, every time you post about it, you're actually advertising for dowsing and getting more interested in learning about what's got this guy so fired up. So, I'll say thanks for that. "

(oh the fun I could have with that one!)
You're welcome! You know, with the exception of one thread (the first one) , I have not brought up God, some others have by accusing me of using God. I was so busy dodging bullets in the "Palm Reading Anyone?" thread that I never got to really make my case. Everyone kept saying that I was forcing my religion on them, which is preposterous. I'll be sure to clear that one up. The thread is locked so I will be forced to start another thread.

>>"As far as your "support", I DARE you to start your own site with all your supporters with your ‘cycling method’. .......... "

LOL ! NO THANKS! Why don't you just start your own dowsing board.

As for every women needing Pammy's program, I think it's a good place to start given the undeniable success rate of her routine and similar ones like Greenbush's. To say that everyone is different is obvious. It might be good to identify exactly what it is that is getting in the way than to say that a swinging rock is going to solve the problem.

>>"Good luck with your blind-vision, scientific approach."

Are double blind approaches twice as bad?

Wahaika

[Wahaika]

>>"And so far - really NO ONE has made fun of your religious beliefs (as you claim). We have only asked you stop pushing them into other's faces or making them an argument for scientific discourse."

Oh yes you did. You might want to go back and read your posts (BTW, where did I claim my religious beliefs were being made fun of?). I mentioned religious reasons to oppose dowsing in one thread. If you keep reliving the experience then get some psychiatric care. I was answering a question put to me regarding my reference to three forces that act on a pendulum. I answered it factually. I forced nothing on anyone. I stated my reasons and that was it. If you don't believe it then that's your prerogative, but don't accuse me of forcing it on you and don't accuse me of acting morally superior. There is no trace of that. If you took it that way, then that is your misunderstanding. And yes, I just went and reread it. What you wrote was not only wrong but it was rude. But then again, "that's just Fawn."

As for religion being an argument for scientific discourse, the existence of God is a fact. There are other facts that logically go with that one. It's another subject for another board or email, I agree. I am only mentioning it here in response to your statement.

>>"First of all - there really IS no "tried and true" method of NBE, because if you brought ANY of this stuff to a regular medical professional, they would probably laugh in your face. So, promoting any routine, Pammy's or otherwise as some kind "traditional" or scientific method really isn't a valid argument. Most AMA types would tell you to quit wasting your money and "get implants or get over it".

>>" So, the "craziness" of dowsing is no more or less crazy than NBE of any kind.

Actually, the above is wrong , as is it's premise . There are many routines that have worked, Pammy's included. That makes them tried and true for the women who have had success with them. True, everybody has differing conditions to overcome before obtaining the conditions that work, many of which are not directly related to BE per se such as digestive problems or stress.

>>" And Wahaika - just between you and me, bro, sorry about the sexism, but this really IS a "women's forum" and you really are going to be subject to suspicion by your presence here. Don't take it personally, but it does feel like an invasion of our privacy. "

LOL! Sorry about the sexism? No you're not. The rest of your post was filled with it.

Fawn. This is the internet. There is no expectation of privacy. At least I'm a visible target.

>>" And to be perfectly honest with you, I'm sure many of us are wondering why you ARE here if your wife is not a full participant. On the other foot, if I were to start hanging out on steroid forums because I wished my husband had more muscle, I'm sure he'd be hurt, and look suspiciously at anything I gave him to eat or drink. Women are sensitive about their breast size - hence the existance of this board. Most of us would be upset if our husbands went behind our backs digging up info on pills and drugs to make ours bigger without our participation. We would either think he's "peeping" or finding us inadequate. We would NOT appreciate it at all. "

That is not the case in our house. I have said many times to just drop BE, but she does not want to. We both do research on the internet. Nothing is behind anyone's back. That's just how we go about it. We are in it together. If you can't understand that or don't believe it then that is your problem, not mine. As for your business in your house, that's up to you and not something I ever want to pry into. Learn from the example.

>>"I think most of us have given you and your motives the benefit of the doubt. But most women I know do not want or appreciate advice from men about breast size, menstruation, childbirth, abortion, menopause, or any other subject on which they have no or could have absolutely NO personal experience or perspective."

The feeling is extremely mutual. I have no desire to talk about any of the above. However, your feminist supposition that perspective can only be gained by personal experience, in any subject, is dead wrong. Does one have to die to have a perspective on death? Remember, this is endocrinology and microbiology. Anyone regardless of sex can have an opinion on the theory and a perspective that it is based on.

>>"There's really no guarantee your feelings aren't going to get stomped on. That's just life in the "Lady's Room". So, pick a solution, but quit pretending to being surprised when there's an uproar. Freedom of speach also comes with responsibility for the consequences of that speach."

I find it somewhat humorous watching you self appointed exorcists in your attempt of defining someone else's board. Again, this is Pammy's board and the theme is Natural Breast Enlargement, correct? If not, please support your answer. I am aware of no attempt by Pammy to make it exclusive to women, not that I'm all that crazy about being here either. It seems to be the price to be paid for the knowledge and understanding of the process. No, I have no desire to grow them on myself, but I have learned quite a bit along with the rest of you and if my observations help it along then all the better.

Everyone else seems to be adult about males on the board. Your problem, as you have outlined is that you are suspicious - yet a little further down you say "I think most of us [excluding you I assume] have given you and your motives the benefit of the doubt." This is consistent with your way of communicating, but don't you think it's a little obvious to do the see saw in the same message?

So, your ladies room theory does not hold with the facts unless Pammy redefines her board to be for women only. Does Pammy value all perspectives or just female? Based on what I know about Pammy, she is pretty open minded and values all perspectives regardless of the origin. Learn from the example.

BTW. There is a lot that I don't read. Just so you will feel all safe and secure in your imaginary privacy; If I see that a thread is discussing BO, I avoid it. If I see a thread that discusses herbs. I read those. I rarely stray from the General section. I don't care about your sex surveys or your discussions of whatever else. If you get some kinky kick from discussing menstruation, go for it. Enjoy yourself. My only interest in the cycle is in its relation to BE. That's not kinky, that's biology.

>>"But, you're really the one that gets to decide here 1) stop making comments about the dowsing. 2) deal with the abuse when you DO make comments or 3) just stop coming here."

Well, since it's my choice:

1) No.
2) I am.
3) If the conditions were right, possibly. But here's a question for you. If I ever "left the board" how would you ever trust that I was really gone? After all, according to you I'm just "some guy on the internet cruising booby boards", right? "That speaks volumes, nothing good." Right? So, how would you know that I was really gone? If I am as you describe, you could never trust it.

Wahaika

[Wahaika]

WQ,

You make the most sense of any here.

Wahaika

[Glasskulan]

Hi!

My Good. What is this! A man just wanting insult women? Now I remember, it said "when you just want to let off some steam"! I can see that you sure do Wahaika.

Why? Why don't you just avoid the dowsing thread then, as you do when it comes to threads discussing BO? Aren't you afraid that this site could turn in to a big BO board?

Just a thought: do you really think that childbirth and NBE are comparable? I understand if men want to participate in the birth of children (children are the result of men and women having intercourse, most of the times anyway) but in NBE, to me it sounds kind of strange. You didn't contribute to the development of breasts in your wife, did you? I have to disagree with you, NBE is a womens issue!

Oh, by the way mrs Waikiki or... never mind, are you really even more quarrelsome than your husband? Just stop quarreling, please! We're all here because we need each others support, not abuse, right?