To borage or not to borage?

[Peachy]

I've heard conflicting things about borage oil and/or flax oil supplements. . . some members apparently use it as part of their routine and are getting results, whereas some say the high GLA isn't so good (and I just read that one member is taking it because of the high GLA. . . so I'm a little confused. Any thoughts on this?

[Wahaika]

Hello Peachy,

GLA is pretty good stuff in general:

www.pdrhealth.com/drug_info/nmdrugprofiles/nutsupdrugs/gam_0120.shtml

Evening Primrose Oil is used in BE also. It works well and has been claimed on various sites to have estrogenic properties. What it is about EPO that makes it work?

It turns out that certain prostaglandins are necessary for BE and behave somewhat like hormones in the body.

Another important element for creating estrogen is aromatase. Aromatase binds to testosterone to create estrogen. So, the production of aromatase is desirable from a BE standpoint.

Here's the theory:

1. GLA is a precursor to prostaglandins.

2. Prostaglandins are a precursor to aromatase.

3. Aromatase is a precursor to estrogen. (aromatase + testosterone = estrogen)

There is more to it, but that's basically it. And it does have the virtue of being one of those things that seems to make a difference both internally and externally. Just like the herbs, too much of a good thing is not desirable. As an internal, I would say 2 grams per day, one first thing in the morning and one before bedtime is plenty.

The reason for Borage oil instead of EPO is because Borage has a higher concentration of GLA , 23-25% vs. about 8% for EPO.

To take all of this one step further, estrogen is generated in adipose tissue (fat) locally, through aromatization. Adipose tissue is tryglyceride. Emu oil (used by some BE'ers in massage) is also tryglyceride. Would Borage oil, internal and external, be a good compliment to emu oil usage? Just something to think about.

Good Luck,


Wahaika

[HoneeBee]

from what ive research, i may be wrong but...the GLA is a precursor to Prostaglandins 1 and 3 which are suppose to supress or reduce the effects of P2(the prostaglandin responsible for making aromatase). GLA is suppose to be good for preventing cancer because it helps reduce estrogen formed through aromatase. there is a protein that bodybuilders use that starts with an A(sorry cant remember the name) that will help produce P2 and increase Aromatase.
maybe someone knows what im talking about. "arachinine" acid or something like that.

Maybe the fact that it helps regulate estrogen is a reason why that EPO and borage oil helps with BE for some women.

[HoneeBee]

arachidonic acid is what its called. known for lots of stuff including increases aromatase. also be careful cause like other estrogen stimulating stuff in is know to simulate cancerous cells to poliferate.

[Wahaika]

You are right on several points but I have not seen where Prostaglandin E2 is not made in the body. AA is made from GLA and maybe that explains why Borage works.

"arachidonic acid - An unsaturated fatty acid, C₂₀H₃₂O₂, found in animal fats, that is essential in human nutrition and is a precursor in the biosynthesis of some prostaglandins."
( www.answers.com/topic/arachidonic-acid )

"Arachidonic Acid (AA) is an unsaturated fatty acid that the body uses to synthesize regulatory molecules such as prostaglandins (hormone like chemical messenger) and thromboxanes (involved in platelet aggregation and blood clotting). Unlike the bad fats such as saturated fatty acids and cholesterol, AA is a form Omega 6 fatty acid, which is a good fat. Omega 6 is one of the two types of fats that is essential to stay healthy. The other type of nutritious fat is the Omega 3 fatty acids.

Arachidonic acid (AA), gamma linolenic acid (GLA) and linolenic acid (LA) are three forms of Omega 6 fatty acids. Linoleic acid is converted to gamma-linolenic acid in the body and then further broken down to AA. Omega 6 fatty acid in the form of Arachidonic Acid can be found in egg yolks, meats (organs in particular), and other animal based food items. The other two forms GLA and LA can be found in evening primrose oil, black currant seed oil, borage oil and fungal oils."
( www.vaxa.com/arachidonic-acid.cfm )

"Linoleic acid (LA), another omega-6 fatty acid, is found in cooking oils and processed foods and converted to GLA in the body. GLA is then broken down to arachidonic acid (AA) and/or another substance called dihomogamma-liolenic acid (DGLA). AA can also be consumed directly from meat, and GLA is available directly from evening primrose oil (EPO), black currant seed oil, and borage oil. Most of these oils also contain some linoleic acid
.
.
.
Interestingly, not all omega-6 fatty acids behave the same. Linoleic acid (not to be confused with alpha-linolenic acid, which is in the omega-3 family) and arachidonic acid (AA) tend to be unhealthy because they promote inflammation, thereby increasing the risk of the diseases mentioned when consumed in excess. In contrast, GLA may actually reduce inflammation.

Much of the GLA taken from the oils mentioned or as a supplement is not converted to AA, but rather to DGLA. DGLA competes with AA and prevents the negative inflammatory effects that AA would otherwise cause in the body. Having adequate amounts of certain nutrients in the body (including magnesium, zinc, and vitamins C, B3, and B6) helps to promote the conversion of GLA to DGLA rather than AA."
( www.umm.edu/altmed/ConsSupplements/GammaLinolenicAcidGLAcs.html )

The addition of Sesame (not mentioned in the above quote) to avoid the AA conversion is available:

"Sesame lignans not only increase beneficial DGLA, but they also help reduce production of pro-inflammatory arachidonic acid, which decreases the formation of destructive prostaglandin E2 and leukotriene B4.30*"
( www.lef.org/newshop/items/item00756.htm )

See also:

answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=553899

www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FDN/is_1_9/ai_114563491

www.cancer.org/docroot/ETO/content/ETO_5_3X_Gamma_Linolenic_Acid.asp?sitearea=ETO

AA being directly available in meat answers a question from long ago also. I did a survey to know if the growers on the board at that time were meat eaters - especially red meat eaters because I knew that the pro-inflamatory prostaglandin E2 was the one of interest. Sure enough, the survey showed that those who were red meat eaters grew and conversely, those who were vegans did not.

When you come across someone who got D's or DDs from puberty (and is not obese) ask them if they ate a lot of red meat while growing up. The answers should be interesting.

Wahaika

[Wahaika]

Also, I remember in there somewhere that your GLA levels are as high as they are going to get after a week of taking so much per day.

If that is true, then maybe Borage as an internal is something to take only 3 or 4 times per week.

Hmmmm...

[HoneeBee]

very interesting Wahaika, thanks for filling in the blanks.

[shakira8]

Hey Wahaika,
You wrote that 2grams per day is plenty.I'm takind 2grams EPO+2500mg Flax per day,should I reduce my dosage?You also said that maybe borage could be taken 3-4 times per week,would this work the same way with Flax+EPO?

[Wahaika]

Hi Shakira,

"Studies have suggested that up to 2,800 mg of GLA per day is well tolerated."
( www.umm.edu/altmed/ConsSupplements/GammaLinolenicAcidGLAcs.html )

To have this much GLA in the diet, one would have to take just over 11 grams per day of borage oil and three times that of EPO.

GLA is an Omega-6.

Flax seed oil is taken for its Omega-3 content.

"A typical American diet contains 11 to 30 times more Omega 6 than Omega 3 fatty acids. The general balance between Omega 6 and Omega 3 should be 1:1 or 4:1 according to University of Maryland Medicine."
( www.vaxa.com/arachidonic-acid.cfm )

The amounts of flax seed oil that are used in most BE routines (3 grams per day) are no problem. Omega-3 oils are REALLY good for you, especially for their anti-inflamatory effects. But make sure that you get flax seed oil without lignands, or with as few as possible. The lignands are aromatase inhibitors. Barleans has both types. I don't know about how others handle it.

[hulagirl]

How do you know if it has lignands in it? I have the NOW brand and it doesn't say. It does have Vitamin A in it and it says at the bottom that it's other ingredients are Gelatin, glycerin, water and carob. It also doesnt' say if it doesn't have it in it. Thanks!

[Wahaika]

If it has lignans, or additional lignans it will say so on the label. See the difference here:

www.barleans.com/products/oils.html

Scroll down to "Barlean's Organic Flaxseed Oil." Right below it is "Barlean's Organic Lignan Flaxseed Oil."

With other brands, I would assume the same. If it says lignans on the label, that's not the one you are looking for. You might even want to call the company.

[shakira8]

Thanx Wahaika!
Mine has no lignans,I did a research before buying it.I'll keep taking the same dosage and hope for the best!Thanx again!